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A Song of Ice and Fire Opinion Article

Jon Snow's Lineage *POTENTIAL SPOILERS*

Opinion by michael posted over a year ago
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While reading A Song of Ice and Fire, I kept coming back to the question of who is Jon Snow's mother. If you haven't read the first four books (the only ones published at the time I am writing this), then you probably want to stop reading because I'll mention stuff that you probably don't want to know until George R. R. Martin reveals them to you - it's so much better that way.

So, I tinkered with a variety of ideas and then a crazy one came to me - what if Eddard isn't Jon's father? A lot of stuff starts making sense then: The urgency of which Eddard has to tell Jon... something. Why Eddard elevates Jon beyond the treatment of a normal bastard. Why Eddard, a man of stubbornheaded honor, would come back with a bastard child after newly being married to Catelyn (who, by all accounts, is beautiful). If Eddard isn't the father, then that doesn't make sense because he claims Jon is his blood in A Game of Thrones. Jon also looks like Eddard (more than his other male children), so Jon must be closely related. The two most closely related people to Eddard are Brandon, Benjen, and Lyanna. Brandon is dead over a year prior to Jon's birth and little is known about Benjen in this time period, but Lyanna is involved in the story around the time of Jon's birth. So, working on the premise that Jon is Lyanna's child, does it fit?

Eddard is haunted by the words "Promise Me, Ned" which Lyanna utters (in Eddard's memory). If Lyanna was Jon's mother, this line begins to take on more weight and explains why it haunts Eddard so. Now, if we try to determine who the father is - the only person who we know for sure that had sex with Lyanna is Rhaegar Targaryen who kidnapped and raped her. (It is unknown if Robert Baratheon, known to sleep around, who was engaged to Lyanna, had the opportunity to father a child through her.) If we accept that Rhaegar may be the father, then the phrase "Promise Me, Ned" is even more haunting. Not just "raise him as your own" but "protect him for he has not only your blood, but the blood of kings". The plea is that much more urgent given Robert's proclivity toward killing (murderering) Targaryens. My guess is extra weight is added to the plea because Lyanna utters it while dying - of giving birth to Jon Snow.

Once I thought about this - it all starts to make sense. Jon's increasingly important role in the tale and even the title of the series - A Song of Ice and Fire. Ice and Fire. Stark and Targaryen. Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen (equals Jon Snow)?
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greedo said:
Whoa...Michael throws out a brutally plausible theory. So do you think Dany and Jon will be coupling up a la Targaryen inter-marrying? Will Dany's dragons ever encounter Jon Snow and if/when they do will they "recognize" him for who he is (if indeed Targaryen blood courses through his veins)?

Makes me want to reread the books with this theory in mind (so I can look for additional details). I wonder if Aegon had any hunch/inkling? Does Jon bear any Targaryen traits that might have raised suspicion?
posted over a year ago.
 
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harold said:
Brilliant, Michael, just brilliant. I like the additional observation about the title of the series, and I like your idea, too, greedo, about the dragons. It's all very tidy.
posted over a year ago.
 
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DocBean said:
I've just started the series, and only on book 2, but I've thought that all along. I'd be surprised if that's not the way it all went down. My only problem with your theory is with Rhaegar Raping her, I think they were in love. From all accounts Rhaegar was quite the catch, and Lyanna probably fell for him, so they ran off together and hooked up.

Also remember Dany in the Tower of the Undying, A Dragon has three heads, Jon is the third.
posted over a year ago.
 
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jeremiah said:
I've been thinking in that direction as well. Eddard Stark was honorable to a fault, and the exact circumstances of his sister's death are unknown. PLUS, the first four books actually build up an interesting picture of Rhaegar Targaryen as an extremely honorable and upright prince! I'd always wondered about how he was capable of kidnap and rape. The only question is, if Lyanna (betrothed to Robert Baratheon) decided to elope with Rhaegar, why did everyone seem to unanimously think of it as kidnap? And what sort of lord's daughter was she, exactly??

If it's true, then Jon Snow himself stands in danger now, what with Stannis and Melisandre being at the Wall with him...

Also, what of this young Quentyn Martell? As of the end of the fourth, he's en route to try and woo Daenerys. Will there be a potential for confrontation between him and Jon??
posted over a year ago.
 
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I think this is very plausible in fact I would say its downright likely that some comingling between Stark and Targaryen has to occur, but the one question I have that kinda diminishes this theory is the fact that there is woman that Eddard would never let Catelyn mention and I would like to know how that would work within this premise
posted over a year ago.
 
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obamacan said:
After reading all four existing books twice I came to the same conclusion before reading your thoughts Michael. Unfortunately there is only one character in the story still alive who would know the truth. That character is Howland Reed, lord of the crannogmen. We have yet to meet him though. Hopefully Jon will meet him in the next book and we will learn if our theory is sound.
posted over a year ago.
 
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targaryen said:
the whole name of the series is "ice and fire". ice is stark fire is tararyen.. so one who joins them together is the protagonist..
posted over a year ago.
 
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huma949 said:
I was heading down a similar road with my theories, but the theories presented make more sense. I was thinking that Jon was in fact Ned's son but that it was him that went with a Targaryen. Right idea i guess, Stark and Targaryen. I'm positive he has Targaryen blood in him. Why else would his dire wolf be the only one with RED eyes? The dire wolf pups and the dead mother killed by the stag was an omen imo. Pretty sure that Dany and Jon are going to get together somehow as is the Targaryen fashion.
posted over a year ago.
 
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While reading "A Song of Ice & Fire" I very quickly thought Jon & Daenerys
Targaryen would some how find each other. Probably when she decides it is
time to come back to Westeros. But I must admit, I was muddle-headed and
never saw an actual connection between Rhaegar & Lyanna. I'm still not sure
I do, because Jon does not betray any Targaryen features whatever. He is all
Stark, but I think, if he does belong to Rhaegar & Lyanna, Rhaegar surely did
rape her. As Ned said to Robert, "Remember what he did to her Robert." Although he could have just been speaking out of bitterness.
posted over a year ago.
 
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Irontruth said:
I hadn't thought about this before, but it certainly is plausable. It also fits the mold for some of Eddard's actions. When there are rumors being spread around Winterfell about Jon's mom, Eddard stops them, not because they are true, but because he won't have his sister talked about like that, even if people don't know it's her.

Two other possiblities exist:

Ser Arthur Daynes sister, Ashara Dayne. Eddard brought her the sword Dawn, something could have happened, but the timeframe and circumstances are suspect. Eddard doesn't stirke me as a man to sleep with a woman in a short affair, let alone the grieving sister of a man he killed. It is possible though.

The second is a story told by the Reed's in the 3rd book. In the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, there's a vague reference to Eddard as the "quiet wolf", at the tourney at Harrenhall, when Jaime was knighted. In the story, the wild wolf (Brandon), asked a dancing girl to dance with the quiet wolf (Eddard). I'm not sure who she is, but she is a second possibility. Though I find it unlikely, she could be Ashara. Either way, a couple years later, during the war, if Eddard happened across her again, something could have happened.

The more I think about this new theory, that he is Lyanna's son, the more I like it. Jon is already a huge part of the story, but this would make his parentage even more important. What we know of Rhaegar, his honor and valor make sense as passed down traits, brought forth even more by his mothers side of the family and being raised by Eddard.

No matter what though, Howland Reed is probably the only person alive who knows the truth.
posted over a year ago.
 
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I am under the belief that Jon is Lyanna's son. But im surprised that alot of what i found to be evidence to this wasnt brought up in anyones comments.

KINGSGUARD
The major proof to me lies with the 7 Kingsguard! Now when Rhaegar died on the Trident he had 3 Kingsguard with him. Prince Lewyn Martell and Jon Darry died and Barristan Selmy was severly wounded by arrow, spear and sword.

Jaime Lannister was at King's Landing guarding King Aerys, Queen Rhaella (Daenerys in womb), Prince Viserys, Elia (Rhaegar's wife)and 2 children Rhaenys and Aegon. So thats 1 Kingsguard to protect 7 members of the royal household.

The last 3 Kingsguard are left at the Tower of Joy to guard Lyanna Stark. The only information given that ive found as to where the tower is is that in Eddard's dream the red mountains of Dorne can be seen behind the tower. Something I found most interesting was who was left to guard Lyanna. Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower 'The White Bull', Ser Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning, and Ser Oswell Whent last of his house. Hightower and Dayne are set to almost legendary status by those who speak of them. So why would the 3 best Kingsguard be left to guard a captive?

In Eddard's dream the 3 Kingsguard confirm that the know Rhaegar is dead on the trident, Jaime killed Aerys, the Queen escaped to Dragonstone, and the lords of the south have bent the knee. Yet all 3 stayed at the tower and didnt come the the aid of any of the royal family whom they swore to protect. The only thing that makes since is if the were ordered to protect Lyanna because she is or is carring royalty. Rhaegar whouldnt be the first of his house to have 2 wives.

BLUE ROSE
The next thing that i noticed is how the blue winter rose keeps popping up. In Eddard's dream Lyanna screams his name and "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, blue as the eyes of death." Next comes during Eddard's memory of the tournament outside of Harrenhal. Rhaegar wins and bestows the crown of love and beauty to Lyanna. The crown is made of blue winter roses. Theres also the story of Bael the Bard the Mance tells Jon. In the tale Bael steals King Starks daughter and leaves on her pillow a blue winter rose.

Now all this wasnt very good evidence until book 2 when Daenerys goes to the house of the Undying Ones. In this chapter there are alot of giveaways if u read carefully but the one that goes with this most is when she sees the images in indigo. The last image in that paragraph is "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother or dragons, bride of fire..." So my guess when i thought on that image was wall of ice = The Wall and blue flower would = Jon Snow.

But this is just my rambling thoughts. And im sure i missed some stuff as well...
posted over a year ago.
 
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Direwolfx said:
In reading the books myself and my friends also came up with the above theory, and indeed it does look that way, ui can only hope it is not so as i am a big fan of The snow , while i only hold contempt for Daenerys, and the only reasons i can find that Jonh might well in fact be Eddards is that there are all the rumours of his involvment with some Dornish lady so perhaps the ever honourable to a fault Eddard did stary , after all Catlyn was to be his brothers, he might have been in love before he ended up with her. Also John does not resemble Rhaegar in looks or indeed actions , he is described as very Stark looking , but so was Lyanna, and John certainly does not look dornish. IM afraid that until Howland Reed is brouth into the story line nobody will know the truth, but the plain fact is Snow (much to my disappoinment that he cant reek vengenance on the Boltons and Freys) is stuck on his wall!!!
posted over a year ago.
 
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Reach13 said:
Yea, I came to this conclusion when I read the first book as well. Though now it seems that it may not have been a kidnap/rape but an elope. Rhaegar mentions in one of the books, that he plans on changing things when he gets back from the Trident. By this I'm guessing he was going to raise Lyanna Stark to High Queen and thier love child to his heir appearent, perhaps even usurp his father the Mad King. This wasn't too far a stretch considering Ned's uncompromising belief in honor and duty. Also, that Robert might want to kill any "dragon spawn" even if it was part of Lyanna. I started to think that what situation would make Ned Stark, lie and face dishonor and humilation that he would father a bastard to a random woman after he was married. It doesn't seem possible that he fathered it and was able to bring it back with the 9 months or so period inbetween while he was waring. Though there are some hidden truths I see. She was a beauty like no other, he loved her dearly, and that she died in child labor. He also doesn't want to talk about it at any lengths with King Robert, who would pose the most potential threat to Jon if it were true. Unfortunatly Jon Snow is bond by his word to The Wall now. Not that he can't become the King of Westeros, & or marry Daenerys, but it will take clever writing for him to be able to leave it with his honor in tact which is the only way I see it happening whether or not he's Ned's nephew or son he has too much of his stepfather/father in him though I can't stand Jon rotting on the Wall for the rest of his life.
posted over a year ago.
 
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when Jon Snow swore his oath he swore, with that name. in his Stark lineage there only seems to be one other with that name and he was jon stark the shipwright i think. I think lyanna would have given his true name as Aegon Targaryen, but shortened his name with a northen twist to Jon. i think Aegon as a name maybe because he was the first and the last of the Targaryen males. I think in the next book Jon will find out, who he is and decide to part with the night watch, in time i think he shall be king, rickon shall be the lord of winterfell, brandan shall go back beyond the wall when the war against the other is done for he is no longer a man. i think Tyrion will become the lord of Casterly rock and the Jon and Daenarys's hand. i also think that at some point Jon will come into direct contact with magic and it will awaken his Targaryen blood, he shall take on the colours of his ghost, ghost shall take on his.
posted over a year ago.
 
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ccdoubleo said:
I came to this conclusion as well, after re-reading the books. the constant and I do mean constant focus on Lord Eddards "Honor" by almost every character that speaks of him. Along with "yet he fathered a bastard". I feel that there is almost to much focus on the fact without the rest of the very, very convincing evidence of Jons lineage. also, we never really hear where Lyanna herself fits in all this. she was betrothed to Robert but was also "aware and unhappy" about his womanizing ways. Prince Rhaeger was highly respected as a kind, intelligent, most honorable prince. It seems so out of character (as much as Lord Eddard fathering a bastard) for him to kidnap and rape a high lady, who was betrothed to another, he would have known it would mean war. and even if he did. Why hide her out in The Tower of Joy? with as hark22bastion said the 3 best of the kings guard?

as for what I think will happen

Mellisindre will find out Jons lineage and try to roast him
Bran will come and warn Jon in time about an assault from the Others and other forces of darness. The wall will fail scattering the remainders of the nights watch therefor releasing Jon from his vows. Jon and Lady Stone heart will have some sort of confrontation in which he gains her support after revealing he is in fact her nephew with the help of Bran and Rickon, then go in search of Sansa and Arya. Arya will have by then befriended Dany and have trained her dragons with Arya's warg powers. the two will come back and lay siege to all of westoros. Sansa will reveal herself and come join her family. lady stone heart will be over joyed and will ask Jon to truly end her life now that her children are safe and there revenge on the lords of westoros has ended..... but I don't know I really haven't given it that much thought
posted over a year ago.
 
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ccdoubleo said:
oh and Dany and Jon will marry and rule all of westoros even Dorn
posted over a year ago.
 
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ccdoubleo said:
just came up with a way that Jon might find out who his parents are... Remember the letter lord Eddard wrote ad gave to Varys? Remember how he was thinking of Jon and how he wanted to talk to him one last time? Bam!!!! its in the letter!!!
posted over a year ago.
 
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dieanja said:
And they lived happily ever after, bla bla bla. Wake up guys, this isn’t the Twilight series! The best about the Song of ice and fire is that NOTHING ever happens the way you expect or may hope for. Although I admit that Lyanna and Rhaegar being Jon’s parents is definitely a strong possibility that fits with the circumstances. BUT in a conversation with Robert Ned mentions some Wylla as Jon’s mother, a common woman:

“You were never the boy you were”, Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? […] You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?” – “Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy,” and I would sooner not speak of her.” – “Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like…” – Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

I don’t see why Ned would lie to Robert who seems to a) know more about Ned’s adultery and b) is Ned’s best friend. Also there are rumours in Winterfell, that Jon’s mother is common. Besides: even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were Jon’s parents, he’d still be a bastard, as they weren’t married. And neither Robert’s nor Ned’s nor Rhaegar’s illegitimate children have any claims to the throne whatsoever.
posted over a year ago.
 
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Nymeria said:
If Eddard were passing Jon off as his own illegitimate son in order to prevent his BEST FRIEND from murdering the child, of course Eddard is going to have a story he made up to placate his best friend, who would obviously want the inside scoop. The key to that dialog is that Robert admits that he never saw her. "You never told me what she looked like…” So, her existence is not confirmed by Robert, or anyone else for that matter. And it makes sense that Eddard would say it was a common girl, because no one cares about the common people (notice how easily Sansa is able to get by all of those noblepeople who used to know her as the betrothed to the king as soon as she says she's a common girl?)

I got super excited when I thought of the idea of Jon being Lyanna's and thought of all of this compelling evidence as to why that must be the direction of the plot, and then I explained it to another person who's read the books and he said it was unlikely because of the timing of the birth, Jon's age, and the timeline of the war and the sacking of Kings Landing. I haven't read the books in a while, and certainly not since I thought of this theory so I was just wondering if anyone could clarify that. Does it fit with the timeline of when Lyanna died, the war, and when Eddard would have come home, keeping in mind Robb's conception/birth as a frame of reference?
posted over a year ago.
 
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dieanja said:
The time frame definitely would fit. Anyway: Am I really the only one who thinks it would be extremely boooooooring if Jon should turn out to be Targaryen bastard? Royal lineage does not really help me sympathize. As a bastard becoming lord commander of the Night's watch is the highest position he could possibly achieve. I really shared his excitement. But if the story should put him on any throne or in Daenarys' lap I probably will need a bucket... (She would be his aunt for Christ's sake!)
posted over a year ago.
 
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What I love the most about this is that the thread was started 2 years ago! Geez - we are overdue for the next book!

I am re-reading the series and listening to the audio books. And this thought popped in my head - so glad that I'm not alone in my theories. So if Ned Stark gave Varys the letter that explains to Jon Snow who his mother is, then Varys knows. And I've always thought that Varys was nothing but loyal to the Targaryens. I think all of his scheming is for them, but who knows.

Write fast Mr. Martin! Keep fingers crossed for the HBS series to be picked up!
posted over a year ago.
 
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dieanja said:
Mmmh, any comments on the conversation between Edric Dayne and Arya about Edric's wetnurse Wylla (aka Jon's mother, at least as Edric tells it: A storm of swords, pages 596-598)? You know I prefer the idea of Jon really being born by an ordinary woman :)
But then when I re-read the scene it seemed more and more strange to me, that Ned Stark would first fall in love with Lady Ashara Dayne at the Hallenhal tourney and then knock up some serving girl. But then again he still was a young man at that time and what with all those hormones in turmoil I imagine that even Ned Stark was only human. Oh and did Ashara's heart break before or after Ned slept with Wylla? And if she killed herself not because of Ned but because of her dead brother, maybe Wylla comforted Ned just as effectively as Jeyne Westerling comforted Robb ;)
posted over a year ago.
last edited over a year ago
 
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hmmm
i just reread the series and i have to say that michael theory is plausible but idk when i think about it it seems more likely that this is true
posted over a year ago.
 
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Fenrir said:
Yeah I was reading everybody's comments and I just had to sign in because everyone was forgetting about the conversation between Edric Dayne and Arya...but dieanja beat me to it lol way to go
posted over a year ago.
 
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Just finishing the series now..wow..thats an impressive bit of storytelling. So 1 head is Dany, the 2nd is Jon, whos the third? Bran? Hes obviously going to ride a dragon at some point. And I dont see Jon marrying Dany his aunt. Also, Jons Direwolf is white/silver and Targaryen hair is silver.
posted over a year ago.
 
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Fenrir said:
The third...I don't think it's Bran, but possibly a new character?
posted over a year ago.
 
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I'm a great fan of this series and have read the books through several times. I think that Ned Stark was lying to Robert about Jon Snow's parentage because he knows that Robert would have killed him, it might have caused a war and that he promised Lyanna. I do believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but who says he is a bastard? It is referenced throughtout the series that the Targaryens play by their own rules and that there were several that had two wives. Rhaegar was described as introspective and a dreamer who "liked books more than his lance." He had an arranged marriage to Elia of Dorne and might not have liked her. The hints of Rhaegar's character, especially Jamie Lannister's memories of him in A Feast for Crows, depict an honourable man, not someone likely to abduct someone or rape them. He referred to the tower that he took Lyanna to as the "Tower of Joy". What if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then Jon Snow would not only be legitimate, but the rightful king of Westeros. In a Feast for Crows Howland Reed told a story that seemed to show that Lyanna loved Rhaegar from afar. There are also references by Ned and others about Lyanna being headstrong and willful. Robert Baratheon was the same way and Ned stated that his hatred of Targaryens was "like a madness in him". If Lyanna left willfully with Rhaegar, Robert was so obsessed with her it is unlikely he would ever have believed that she left of her own free will and continue to think she was abducted. Ned Stark stated in A Game of Thrones that Lyanna's willful nature was the cause of her disappearance with Rhaegar. Perhaps Lyanna had to run away with Rhaegar because she was already pregnant by him. I'm hoping some of these questions are will be answered in a Dance of Dragons. The hints about Rhaegar and Lyanna show a tantalizing story and two compelling and tragic figures. Maybe he will do a prequel if he ever finishes a Dance with Dragons.
posted over a year ago.
 
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sandsh said:
I am just re-reading this series and during book one also came up with the conclusion Jon was Lyanna's and Rhaegar's child. Ned was far too honourable, I think Ned promised Lyanna that he would never reveal this to anyone, but we do have to wonder who else knew that is still alive. I too believe that they were in love and may have married - Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. Also, when Dany shows compassion for the women being raped Jorah says she is like her brother Rhaegar. Jon looks all Stark just like Robb and Sansa were all Tully both taking after their mother.
I think that Bran will "see" the truth about Jon but maybe not before he meets up with Dany. Maybe the black dragon is for John. I think the "Others" will sweep down and destroy the wall and head south with Winter. Then John will have to leave the wall to go after them. Eventually he will meet up with Dany and the dragons, then they will join to kill the "Others" with the dragons. Bran will arrive with the Children and fly the third dragon. They will destoy the Others forever and no longer need the wall.
But knowing GRRM we will all be wrong (he may read our comments and change it deliberately}. Tyrion will end up flying the dragon and kill them all.
Surely the third should be blood of the dragon - another hidden Targaryen?
The longer it takes for the next books to come out the more likely we will have sussed out what is going to happen.
posted over a year ago.
 
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What about Tansy that Lord Hoster Tully speaks of in his death bed? We never really found out who she was or how she played in this.
posted over a year ago.
 
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Lewodakim said:
Some thing I would like to add, I believe Jon Snow is the son of Ned for a few reasons.

1. The Time frame with the supposed love affair with Willa does match up with Jon's supposed age given that he must have been born during the war.(Which still keeps Rhaegar in the running as well, I know).
2. In order to keep this lie going about Willa, way too many people would've had to keep the lie going. Because the child who spoke to Arya would have to been fed the lie at some point, not to mention Willa would have to keep the lie going as well, and lets just forget about everyone at Harrenhall who knew both Ned and Willa. Way too many people would have known of the lie, someone would have told, unless Ned heartlessly murdered or paid these people off for their silence (suddenly Ned has shit for honor)

3. Jon is a true stark through foreshadowing. His stark qualities completely outshine his "Targaryen" qualities. He is not crazy and he is a warg like all the rest of Ned's children. And his direwolf belongs to the pack with the others who's mother died, foreshadowing the death of Ned Stark. That foreshadowing is lost if Jon is not his son, thats just bad writing.

4. There had to be tons of soldiers out there when Ned and Reed came from finding Lyanna. They didn't storm the tower alone then walk back alone with no one noticing that they came out of there with a crying infant.What? maybe someone smuggled the child out and no one asked, hey where the heck did that kid come from? I mean its a bit ridiculous when you think about it.

Then again this is GRR Martin, anything is possible, maybe I am wrong in my belief and Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. But I say that Sansa will be the third head of the dragon, I just feel it. Can't wait for the next book, good reading.
posted over a year ago.
 
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nubo said:
I won't lie, the idea of it started coming to me by the time I was done the...third book, I think? (I JUST finished reading the series, will re-read.)
Honestly I sort of took it that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love. I don't know whether they were married or not (I'm reallllly too lazy to search...but wasn't there this one part where this old lady speaks to...Arya? About the Wolf-girl-- I seriously think it's Lyanna (Ned said Arya had the "soul" fire similar to Lyanna right? And the look?)-- how she ruined her life and how the Wolf-girl later had another love- this was another part..I think in Jojen's taletelling now.) but definitely Ned's haunting "promise me, Ned" made me think of Jon after I read that. It all fits. (Or fitted, to me)

I didn't see the Ghost-being-white thing as Targaryen related, exactly... I think Ghost can just be a million of things: Snow, for one.

But being Martin, he could easily smash that idea. I don't know. Personally I like the idea...and I'm a romantic, so I'd even hope for Dany and Jon to get together, but I'm sorta placing 90% of my money they won't. Prophecy of Dany and Jon's oath, I think, will prevent that.

Anyway, just glad I searched up Jon's parentage. I knew people would see it as I do. :) I CAN'T WAIT TIL THE NEXT BOOK!

PS. There is something which makes me wonder where Tyrion will go. And I think eventually there will be a clash between Tyrion and Jon (foreshadowed since the beginning of GoT...I think..)
Gah. Dance with Dragons please come out already T_T
posted over a year ago.
 
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teot said:
That what I thought as well. I think Maester Aemon being on the wall is also a hint in that direction. It does make alot more sense than him being Ned's son, the only thing I can think to disprove it would be Jon's appearnce.

I can't wait for a dance with dragons to come out. I loved a feast for crows but my favorite characters were not in it which pissed me off just a tad after waiting so long for it to come out.

Any way it's a good theory and if it is true than Jon might become one of the new dragon knights.

p.s - what do people think about what's going to happen to Bran.
posted over a year ago.
 
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teot said:
p.s again. Jon still remains the bastard we all know and love even if his sire does change. Ha.
posted over a year ago.
 
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arrya said:
I am rereading the books prior to the HBO series (cant wait!) and am currently reading ASOS. I got to the reference of Edric Dayne telling Arya about Ashara being Jons mother.

I too googled who were jon snows parents and came to this site. This was first in the search list.

2nd in the search was the site below and I suggest you read this site too

http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chhri­sho­lde­n/j­on_­s..­.tm­l

The most compelling argument also points to the theory of Rhaegar and Lyanna being the parents. Take a read, its got lots and lots of references to back up the theory.
posted over a year ago.
 
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just started reading a Game of Thrones for the 3rd time (hoping that when i'm done with 'Crows' GRRM will finished the 5th)and I relised that there is no way Ned Stark fathered a bastard,too straight lased. (i'm a little slow I guess) I thought It was his sister and King Richards child that Ned was keeping. But after seeing these posts it has to be Rhagaer's. It all make sense now. Thats why Jon Aarrys was killed. They are looking for the boy who was supposed to be Robert's bastard but is not. What happens next? lol
posted over a year ago.
 
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bayonet24 said:
I am reading the series again and after reading all of these comments it reminded me of a section in ACOK when Dany was in the house of the Undying One's. She sees Ragaer with "a woman" nursing a newborn and says "Ageon. What better name for a king" could this have been Jon? whe asked if he will make a song for him, he says "He has a song. He is the prince that was promised.His is the song of ice and fire." And he seems to look at Dany like he sees her. HMMMMMMMMM
posted over a year ago.
 
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vbfischer said:
Haven't read through the comments yet, so forgive me if what I'm saying has been repeated ad'nauseum...

1. As you said, his promise to his sister seemed to be so vital it seems to have cause much anguish and pain...

2. Lyanna expresses doubts about Robert being faithful.

3. Ragear wins tourney, passes his wife and places wreath at Lyanna's feet. In fact, the only people who seem to think Lyanna was kidnapped and raped are Robert. There seems to be an undercurrent of a love story between Rhagear and Lyanna...

4. I remember Maester Aemon saying something about Jon reminding him of Rhagaer.
posted over a year ago.
 
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vbfischer said:
stellalamma - I thought it was established that Lysa killed Jon Aryn because he was going to foster their son Robert with the Lannisters?
posted over a year ago.
 
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I am new to the series only just finished the 4th, but I have always though Jon was Lyanna and Rhagear, its not until the 2nd book did I start to think that it wasn't rape and in the 3rd I started to suspect that they were married.

I think that there are just too many clues that point to Lyanna and Rhagear being the parents for it not to be. I mean why go through the trouble of ;laying so many clues that point to the possibility and not make it so.


The idea that Jon's mother is some common woman is laughable, because Ned Stark wouldn't have anything to really explain to him right before his death.

I just think Jon's parentage has to be really epic because waiting 4 or more books into the series to reveal/clarify Jon's parents and for it to be just as it was when he was introduced(A regular Bastard) would be a giant waste of time.

Also I am a Jon/Dany shipper. I think there is a reason the throne belonged to the people of the dragon blood. There is a subtle magic tied into the blood of the characters in this story and I think none of the other houses really belong on the throne other than the Targaryens and the Starks. People forget that while some of the morals and traditions in the story resemble our world, a song of ice and fire takes place in a very different universe where magic and blood are essential to holding the throne and having the power to protect the realm.

If the wall does fall which I think is highly probable, Dany being in the throne with her dragons, will be the only thing that could possibly save the realm if not the world will end in chaos.
posted over a year ago.
 
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blush
Nice! I can't wait for the next books to see what of this is real.
*fells like an idot for posting this next to some epicaly long comments*
posted over a year ago.
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laugh
I came to the same conclusion. However, I think you all should consider just how important all of this is: if we're right (and we are, or we're being hoodwinked on purpose), then it seems likely that John Snow is Azhor Azhai reborn.

While it's true that we don't know much about the prophecies, we DO know that Aemon and Rhaegar thought that Rhaegar's son would fulfill the prophecies of the Prince who was Promised. We also know that the Wall was built after the White Walkers appeared, and that Jon came to the Wall willingly, and came to command it, at the cost of his noble life... exactly what you would expect Azhor Azhai to do.
posted over a year ago.
 
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Hune182 said:
Well the only person who can confirm Jon's lineage if he is Lyanna's son is Howland Reed and possibly BenJen might know as well so I highly doubt Jon will find out soon or at all since Benjen is missing and with the Ironborn still in The Neck and with Lord Bolton rounding up the last Stark supporters and bringing the rest of the northern lords to heel don't think Lord Reed will be stepping out of the Neck for a good while and definitely hasn't told his children..for all we know Jon may be in fact just the son of a commoner considering the plot twist GRRM puts in.
posted over a year ago.
last edited over a year ago
 
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jchobbs said:
I've been talking about this theory with a friend and here is where we stand.

We know that Lyanna was with Rhaegar and had enough time for her to get pregnant.

When Rhaegar left to go fight Robert at the Neck he left Lyanna at The Tower of Joy with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and two other high ranking members of the Kingsguard. Lets also not forget that the Kingsguard is the elite bodyguards sworn to protect the royal family. Rather then going with Rhaegar to protect the prince, going to Kings Landing to protect the King, or protecting Rhaegar's wife Elia and their two children three of the seven Kingsguard stay with a prisoner? Why? Probably because they were staying to protect another member of the royal family Rhaegar and Lyanna's unborn son.

Next we know Ned, Howland Reed, and five other soldiers came to the Tower of Joy and fought the three Kingsguard there. Only Ned and Howland Reed survived the battle.

Ned finds Lyanna who is dieing and she requests a promise from him before she dies.

Ned then travels to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes and returns North with Jon.

My theory is that when Ned entered the tower he found Lyanna, her son, and her midwife Wylla in the tower. Lyanna asks Ned to promise to protect the child and dies. Ned, Wylla, and Howland Reed come up with the story of Jon being Ned and Wylla's and go to Starfall. Ned returns Dawn and Wylla stays in Starfall as a servant. (Although she may have been in Starfall before and was at the Tower because of Arthur Dayne's presence there)

Ned then returns to Winterfell with Jon in tow, telling everyone that Jon was his basterd.
Wylla lived in Starfall telling everyone that she gave birth to Ned Stark's bastard. When Edric Dayne was born 4-5 years after Jon he was nursed by Wylla and as he grew up was probably told by Wylla that she was Jon Snow's mother.

So at a minimum in this situation only Ned, Howland, and Wylla would know the truth of Jon's parentage.

And on another note as for Jon having the Stark look. I think that is an argument against him being Ned's. After all the Stark look doesn't breed very true through Ned, only one of this five children (Arya) came out looking like a Stark.
posted over a year ago.
 
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dpw said:
Never comment, but after reading all these cool thoughts, had to post...one small thing, which may be nothing, but unlike Dany, Jon Snow is susceptible to fire as evidenced with his burned hand from taking out the wights in the Old Bear's tower...obviously, not all Tagaryens are immune to fire, but wanted to bring it up...maybe this will present itself later. Remember Aemon being with Sam and wondering about whether there was any heat coming off his sword Lightbringer? Right now, only Dany could wield a sword like that...so many possibilities!!! Cannot wait for Dance!!!!!
posted over a year ago.
 
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I came to this theory as well while reading and to add another clue if I'm not mistaken wasn't wylla jons milk mother, a dornish woman? and lyanna was being held near dorne I believe. It just seems to make sense to me. I'm more than half way through book 4 and I can't wait for dance of dragons to see whats been going on with bran and jon.
posted over a year ago.
 
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hmmm
Why would Ned allow Jon to go to The Wall if he were of Targaryen blood and therefore in the line of succession, knowing that the taking of the vows would eliminate his right to his throne? Is it just because his friend had claimed the crown for himself? It seems kind of dishonorable for Ned...though I guess having just knocked a Targaryen off the throne, he wouldn't want to immediately place another there, Stark blood or no. I agree that the evidence presented points toward your conclusion, but I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind it.
posted over a year ago.
 
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hey287 said:
Woooooooow this whole page is awesome.

I'm sorry to say that I haven't read the books. Where I'm from there's not much opportunity to go to a book shop or library. But I am a fan of HBO's Game of Thrones. Because I liked it so much, I inquired more about the characters and each of their stories. And while I was watching the show, I kept asking myself; why is there so much attention on Jon Snow? He is in his own little story far far away. To me he had no relevance.
When I researched his story, it doesn't explain the; "You're vital to the story becauuuse..."
But then I found out about the movement of fans who think that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and it just clicked. I began to flip out screaming, "THIS MAKES SENSE! NOW I SEE YOUR IMPORTANCE JON SNOW!!!!!!!!"

I apologise if I have insulted anyone by not reading the books. Believe me when I say that I really, really, really want to :)
posted over a year ago.
 
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michael said:
I think that it is completely in Eddard's character to allow Jon to join the Black, because his first priority was to protect Jon. If Jon was Rhaegar's true born son, then Robert would have sought his death (or at least exile) since (like Viserys and Daenerys) he would be a perceived threat to Robert's rule. It is probably not dishonorable in Ned's eyes to have Robert and his line as the rightful king since Aerys' line was tainted with craziness (Aerys, Viserys) and lost the right to rule through Aerys's actions (torture and death of Rickard and Brandon). If you discount the children and grandchildren of Aerys, then Robert is the next in line to be king (through Aegon Targaryen's daughter). As such, Eddard would be more inclined to keep Jon from getting killed (as he attempts with Daenerys) than in preserving the possibility of Jon ascending to the throne.
posted over a year ago.
 
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I think that it is more then likely that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rheager Targaryen.
But I am not inclined to believe that Jon was born of rape. Jon was a love child. It is more then possible that Lyanna (who Arya was always likened to) had a bit of a wild streak and fell in love with Rheager.
We know that Rheager was in love with Lyanna. He named Lyanna Stark, not his wife and mother of two children, Elia Martell as his Queen of Love and Beauty. And the result of their love was Jon.
However when Robert, Lyanna's fiance found out about Rheager's love for Lyanna, he believed she was raped. (Possibly because she was pregnant, we don't know,) and started killing all Targaryens, instead of just the Mad King.
Knowing Robert's hate for Rheager and all Targaryens, and having promised Lyanna, Eddard claimed Jon as his bastard. He raised Jon as his own, ensuring that Jon had training like other noble bastards did not. Even though it was at great personal cost to himself and his wife.
He never told Jon about his real mother and father, Lyanna and Rheager ensuring that only he knew the truth. This along with sending Jon to the Wall helped to protect Jon against Robert, who still hates Rheager and all Targaryens.
posted over a year ago.
 
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Semeli said:
So if john is targaryen and such a important one why did he get burned by the lamp in GoT while fighting with the whitewalker?? daenerys doesent so why him?
posted over a year ago.