I'll start by saying that I was enjoying the debate that the following wall generated. Things turned ugly pretty quick though.
Anyway, for those of you who may have missed the continued conversation, I have it all recorded here. I have removed the names of everyone except myself, but have given people codenames, so that y'all can follow the "debate"...
Orginal wall post by SOULSAVER:
Its better to live your life as if their is a God, and die to find out their isn't, than to live your life as if their isnt a God, and die to find out their is...because then it would be too late....
If your God would rather we believe in him because it's the safe, risk-free thing to do, not because we honestly believe, he's not a God I want to submit to.
If I find out that there is a god when I die, what difference will it make?
Apparently we go to hell?
Lets pretend though, that there are 2 of me. One me lives in a universe in which I am an Atheist, the other me lives in a universe in which I believe in God. Lets say that over my lifetime(s), I do a number of good things and a number of bad things. Overall, it turns out that both me's have lead equally good lives and both me's qualify for entry into heaven. Does God reject Atheist parallel universe me, even if I have been just as good as Religious parallel universe me? What if Atheist parallel universe me actually scored more good person points than the Religious parallel universe me? Still rejected from heaven? Would God rather take in bad Christians than good Atheists? That would mean that religion and heaven are not about being good people while here on earth, but rather religion is about following religion in order to gain entry to an exclusive club in a theoretical afterlife.
According to your wall-post here SOULSAVER, religion isn't about living this life as well as you can in order to be a good person, but rather that we should all live in fear of a hypothetical force that may grant us a kick-ass afterlife if we sacrifice enough of our conviction, free-thinking and love to "Him". Sorry, but your argument here does nothing but further convince me that religion of any kind is not for me.
Good points. But the thing you athiests never see, is that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH OUR RELIGION. What is so bad about it? Even if u chose to belive that he dosent exist, Christianity still teaches good morals. It is still an ideal way of living. But the thing is....what if. Even i doubt, yet there is always that what if factor. If there is, then you people are doomed. God dosen't want to send you to hell, but no sin can enter Heaven. He gave you life! Isnt that enough reason to love him? Besides, you have to say that something started creation. There had to be something there. There is still something there. God. The human race could not have gotten as far as it did without some kind of guidence, whether you recognise it or not. But the thing is, i never came here to argue, i just wanted to make you think a little. Atheism will get you no where in the end....just have a lil think about this, k? thats all i ever wanted :)
Did we SAY there was something wrong with your religion? I don't believe he gave me life, I don't believe he exts, I don't believe he started creation. I believe in evolution. Do you know how insulting you're being. What if I walked into the Christianity spot and went "Kay guys, you're all wrong, God doesn't exist, believing gets you nowhere, creationism is a lie, I just want to make you think about how wrong you are. That's all I want" Don't be such a dickwad.
Insulting. What am I insulting? Disbelief. If I'm a lil kid, and i think Santa is real, and ur some adult who dosent think that , and I say, but who delivers the presents? Is that insulting you? No, it isnt. Calm down. I never wanted to start an argument, i was just saying that it is worth considering the fact that it could exist....take a chill pill bro.
"He gave you life! Isnt that enough reason to love him?" - 'He' doesn't exist, according to my worldview.
"Atheism will get you no where in the end." - Neither will believing in God, according to my worldview. See the pattern here? It is all very well to get us to think (by your definition of thinking), but we require the same of you. Telling an Atheist that god might exist so believe in him on the off-chance he does is not going to make an Atheist change their mind. Many of us have already considered the possibility that a god exists and, for various reasons, we then rejected that belief. I am not going to hell because I do not believe that hell exists. And if it does, and I go to hell for merely not believing in a god, then that god is a hypocrite and I'll be damned if I'm gonna worship a hypocrite (har har har!).
Are you equating the Christian God to Santa? Please say that you are because that would make my day.
Can I ask you this: why did you choose the religion that you believe in? Why not some other religion? What makes you so more right about your religion than other people are about theirs? Shouldn't we all believe in every religion, since you think we should believe just to cover our asses? Why is YOUR god the one god that we should believe in in order to save our poor, damned souls?
I don't think anyone said anything about your religion being bad. I don't even know what your religion is. I personally do not think that all religion is bad. I don't think all religious people are bad. But neither are Atheists. Atheism is not bad and neither are the Atheists who choose Atheism.
Bahaha "God, is that you?" "Sorry kid...I don't exist either..." You're being insulting because you're telling us that we're wrong without giving us reasons that we believe. WE DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
Ooooh just reread one of your posts. "Christianity teaches good morals. it's an ideal way of living". Hey hey hey, didja know that you can be a good person...WITHOUT following a religion and WITHOUT being a Christian? *gasp* The very idea!
I find it quitie insulting how you are trying to convert us. We are not trying to convert you. You have not met us, but you are judging us.
STOP BEING STUPID, MEAN, RUDE, BULLIES TO SOULSAVER!!! IF YOU DON'T CARE SO MUCH, THEN WHY BOTHER EVEN TALKING BACK?! some of you are just the lowest people. *disappears*
What is with this whole disappear thing? Why would I want to believe in a god that does not want me to think freely!
STOP TRYING TO CONVERT US TO YOUR MINDLESS, SLAVISH WAY OF THINKING! IF YOU WANT US TO SHUT UP THEN LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE!!! Nonexistance, I hate people like you, and christian to boot!
Okay, I'm here as ATHEISTCAT's backup. First of all... on the post below, ANOTHERSOULSAVER, I'd love to talk with you. A point I would like to make at this moment is that ATHEISTCAT is the #1 CAT. She's a Nidan! Better then you, better then Naruto, better then Leonardo the Turtle, and whatever other shinobi are out there. Second of all, I am a Christian, a very proud one at that, but do these guys come to our spot and tell us that our beliefs are wrong? And guys, stop with the caps lock.
BUT TEH CAPS LOC IZ SO FUNNNN?!?!?!!! Lol no. Nidan FTW :P Until I reach Sandan at least.
ANOTHERSOULSAVER, although I am very open-minded, you're a Christian trying to convert us on an Athiest spot. we're not being low at all
No one has been rude here except ANOTHERSOULSAVER. I think SOULSAVER's comments are misguided, but have encouraged debate.
*sigh. Ok, fine. You have proved to me that you are stubborn, and you arent going to change, but i never asked that. Ur the ones who started arguing. When we die, lets see who gets the last laugh...
And he does allow us to think freely. But think to freely, and you will begin to think thoughts that are considered wicked in his eyes. He loves us, he dosen't want to send us to hell. He is our father, if we obey him, he will reward us, disobey and he will punish us (yes, i think its harsh too, but then again, isnt life?). If you truely have faith, God will awnser you. If you pray to him, you will get awnsers. I pray for help with my issues and other peoples issues. I was worried that I wasn't getting anywhere in life because I was a bit scared of trying new things. I prayed to God for help in my life, and that same week there was a assembly at school about trying new things, and being confident. Coincident? Mabey, but that is one hell of a coincident if you ask me. Trust me, if you truly belive and have faith and patience, God will awnser your call. Now can we end this please? I never wanted this argument...
We never wanted it either. and there is nothing wrong with you having faith, my boyfriend, sister and best friend are devote catholics, your faith isn't what upset us, it's just the way you were implying we're going to hell which upset me. I wouldn't tell anyone that! "disobey and he will punish us" "than to live your life as if their isnt a God, and die to find out their is...because then it would be too late...." are you implying we're going to a place we don't even believe in?
Suppose you live your life as if there were a God and then die and find out you never worshiped him the right way and you're going to hell, or that the true god is Athena and you will be punished for being a heathen, or that there is no god at all and you will vanish into oblivion after wasting your life. It is better to live life to its fullest than to submit to an abusive deity that probably doesn't exist anyway. Even if God did exist and the right way to worship him is easily knowable, he still has no right to force it on anyone with the punishment of eternal torture. Screw him.
You tell us that we are stubborn, yet YOU are the one who came here and told us that our beliefs were wrong and won't accept that any of our arguments have validity because they don't fir your worldview. You can believe what you damn well want to about God and the afterlife and all that stuff, but you can't some here and insult our belief system by telling us that we are wrong and expect that we will just join your flock of believers.
You can't tell us to believe "just in case we are wrong" and then not expect a debate about it. You haven't even addressed any of the points that I made about this issue, and yet you believe that I am the stubborn one? I love it when religious people come here to talk to us, but not if you believe that you are superior because you love Jesus. Do you go to other clubs for other religions and tell them that that they should believe in your God or they will go to hell? I checked other clubs and I can't see you telling people of other religions to believe in your God. What is it about Atheism that makes you think we require more saving than any other group of people? What is it about the God that you chose that is better than any other religion's god? Why are you right?
Because Jesus came here and confirmed that God is real and that he is our Lord and saviour. Explain to me how a scripture lasted 500 years to then be published and then lasted another 1500 to this day? And it dosent matter what you belive. God will judge all of us in the end. If he belives that you are worthy to go to heaven you will, if you are not then u will go to @#!*% . Simple as that. Dosent matter if u belive or not, because in the end that is our fate. To be chosen. And to serve the Lord.
And f.y.i, i cam across this club and felt sorry for you, so I tried to give you a little something to think about. Im not beliveing out of fear, I want there to be a God. It would be easier to not have one i suppose. But wouldnt it be nice to live in the happiest place in the world for the rest of ur life? Dont u want to live in such a divine place? Think about it. U spend about 80 years on earth. You do good and worship God. Then u proceed to spend an eternity in an awsome place. Seems great dosent it.
God does it because he loves us. He loves everyone. We dont even deserve to go to heaven, because man is flawed. But God is merciful. Now let me ask you a question. Have YOU ever tried being a Christian? If not, then stop being a hypocrite and leave me alone ok. Fine, dont belive. Just quit trying to be such a smart @#!*% . But please. Have a good long think about this ok. I am sorry if this offended you. I am just trying to introduce to you what could be the greatest and most important desicion u ever make.As for the other religions, at least they have some belief. At least they have faith. They belive in somehting. that is so much better than having no faith in anything. Always remember that God loves you, even I love you, k, bye :)
1) You seriously think someone hasn't suggested christianity to me before? I've had numerous experiences with numerous religions. Do not assume that Atheists are ignorant. I came to Atheism because of what I learnt about many religions, not because I'm some dumbshit that wasn't "lucky" enough to have someone cram religion down my throat.
2) God does not exist, so what you believe about him and his buddy Jesus have no impact upon me at all. You can believe in them all you want, but your belief in them does nothing to convince me that they exist.
3) Heaven does not exist. This life is all we have and I would love to spend it doing nice, thoughtful, intelligent deeds, rather than spend it being told that I am a bad person just because I don't believe in a mythological god. I don't need your god to know that I am a good person.
So according to you the universe appeared out of its on accord. How do things come to be? People create them. They invent them. God is all there ever was and ever will be. Explain stigmata then. How does that happen hmm?
4) Not believing in your god or anyone else's god does not mean that I do not have faith. You have made massive, insulting assumptions here based purely on your own narrow beliefs about Atheism. YOU are the one who needs to have a think about this stuff. I was on your side here about encouraging some thinking here, but clearly you didn't want debate: you wanted to make it clear to us that we are not worthy of respect because we don't believe in your god.
5) You still haven't answered my questions. Why should I think if you don't have to?
Ok. What do u want me to awnser
Now you are telling me how I think the universe was created?! BWAHAHAHAHA! Wow, that is a neat trick... I am not so arrogant to presume to know how the universe was created. I wasn't there. But I do not find it likely that a god created anything. There are any number of other theories that work towards an explanation that are just as valid as your god theory.
People created gods too. Cool huh?
No. God has always been here. Do not question him. And it isnt MY God theory.
How does stigmata happen? Um, any number of ways... Disease, injury, psychological distress, faking it...
Here are the main questions that I asked: You haven't even addressed any of the points that I made about this issue, and yet you believe that I am the stubborn one? I love it when religious people come here to talk to us, but not if you believe that you are superior because you love Jesus. Do you go to other clubs for other religions and tell them that that they should believe in your God or they will go to hell? I checked other clubs and I can't see you telling people of other religions to believe in your God. What is it about Atheism that makes you think we require more saving than any other group of people? What is it about the God that you chose that is better than any other religion's god? Why are you right?
And there is no god. I'm not questioning him because there is nothing to question. See how this is working here?
Explain how some people had the wounds appear on Good Friday and then dissapear on Easter morning
Did you just link me to WIKIPEDIA?! *cries laughing*
I already gave you some explanations.
I gave u explanations to those things u asked. Ok, so they dissapear do they? And they bleed even though no penetration of the skin has occured? Intresting...i dont think that is self inflction
No, you didn't answer those questions. You danced around them.
Ok then. Atheism isnt a belief. It isnt a religeion. It is merely disbelief. Nothing more or less. Just anti-Christ. As for the other religions, they are simply not what I belive in. Christianity is my religion. Other people have other relgions. But there is more evidence. Like Jesus. Miricles. My mother has seen an angel. I just have an instinct, a feeling. It is unexplainble, yet strong. U think im insulting you? pah! What am i insulting? Nothing, atheism isnt really anything. It isnt a religon, it has no customs. No ceremonies. No officioal leader. U stating that their is no God is insulting to me. I didnt say anything though. Atheism itself is an insult to me. I am done here. ok. I just wanna let you know that God loves you, as do I. I will be deleting this post in about 10 minutes to prevent this going any futher.
MISANTHROPE86 (comment not published publically as SOULSAVER had deleted the wall post before I could add it):
Atheism is NOT "anti-Christ"! Know what you are talking about before you attack it. If you really believe that your religion is so awesome that non-believers should be converted, then you should really be trying to convert all other religions, not just Atheists. Atheism is NOT simple disbelief in god. If you had taken the time to actually talk to some of us before deciding that you had to save our souls, then you would know that your views about Atheism are wrong. No one here has said that Atheism is a religion. But it is a system of belied about the world. It is just as valid as your religion and if your religion doesn't teach you to respect that, then your religion is something I can never respect.
So that is what transpired. Well, at least it's what I managed to save before the deletion of the wall post. I'm pretty sure I got all of it though. It really annoys me when people delete posts like that because then we don't learn anything from them.