I think Dawn doesn't have a soul. I think a soul is the spiritual energy that you get when you are born, makes you who you are, but isn't your conscience or anything to do with emotions. The monks could manufacture her body and her biology using Buffy’s blood, and I’m convinced Buffy probably wasn’t the only one they took blood from since Dawn doesn’t look exactly like her you know? Maybe they took it from both slayers, or a little from every Scooby. The point is, that while they could manufacture a human body, with a heart and a brain that keeps it alive, I don’t think they could make a soul. I think her soul might be the green mystical energy of the key housed in her human body, neither good or evil, which is what I think souls are, neutral.
A soul is basically, if you want to be religious about it, the part of you that stays alive after you die. That means heaven, hell, reincarnation your soul goes into another body, anything like that. It's not a conscience, which is part of nature vs nurture, or emotions which come from your brain and your heart. Right and wrong has to be taught to people, it's not an innate part of anyone. Your culture and your society dictate what you see as right or wrong. Some cultures think it's okay to eat dogs, while some would be absolutely horrified by it. Some people think the death penalty is a good thing, and some people don't. Right and wrong is something you learn, something that's taught to you, not something you know instinctively.
I think that Dawn has a conscience, innocence, and the memories of being raised as a good person by a loving mother, I'm not counting Hank.
A soul doesn't make you good or evil, your inner nature does that. Vampires have a demon in them, which can effectively make them ignore their conscience. How can they survive really, if every time they went to bite someone, their conscience kicked in? In season one, before the whole Angel/Angelus mythos, demons and vampires had souls. A demon soul, as Giles explained in the second episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It was only after the writer's had backed themselves into a corner that the soul/soulless thing came into being, and it's only with Angel is that a problem. Spike, Drusilla, Darla, Harmony, James, Elizabeth, they all could love just fine with no soul. Drusilla says that herself in crush, 'Oh, we can love quite well, if not wisely.'
And I also don’t buy the Angel and Angelus are separate people. If they were, then why does Angel need redemption for all the bad things Angelus did? He could love. He could deal with loving Darla because she was a vampire, and it was a possessive and dark vampire love. With Buffy, it was human feelings and that disgusted him, and would have made Drusilla’s fate look merciful with what he would have done to Buffy for making him feel that way. Spike is mostly the same person soulless and souled, except when he’s souled his conscience is heightened. He still loves just as deeply, he’s still the same personality that grew over the years from the shy human poet, to who he was later. In a way, Spike is still that same shy poet, he loves with a poet’s heart, he is still scorned by society, and he is still as insecure as he always was. He just covers up that insecurity, like Faith, with barbs and sarcastic remarks.
I think the more evil you are as a vampire depends upon the person you were as a human.
Liam: Was a drunken man who slept with every woman in the town, hated his family and stole money from them. When becoming a vampire, he slaughtered his whole town and family.
Drusilla: Was an innocent, pious girl who wanted to be a nun, cursed with a gift that was seen as evil by her family and society. Turned insane by Angelus. If she wasn’t the same person as a vampire that she was as a human, she wouldn’t be insane.
Darla: A bitter woman, dying of syphilis in bed and given up on the idea of god. She is not much different as a vampire, she is still a bitter woman, that looks out for herself first and foremost.
William: A shy man, who society scorned and loved poetry, and a devoted son to his mother. When becoming a vampire the first thing he does is go to his mother, to try to cure her of her life threatening illness and make her better by turning her. That’s not something evil, that is something still loving. You can see his evolution from William to Spike in the flashbacks, most of it was caused by Angelus’ manipulations, Spike even explains that in their fight in the episode Destiny.
Harmony: Still the same vapid, self centered cheerleader she always was. And not very good at being evil. Basically she’s just a vamp version of the high school bi*ch she was.
Vampire Willow: The same as Willow when Willow went evil in season six. Willow is just a version of her, with all her taught, human inhibitions suppressed. She’s Willow’s darker nature brought to light. Angel was even about to say in that episode that what Buffy was saying about the vampire not being Willow wasn’t true before she cut him off.
Demons. Not all demons are evil, but no one ever said if they had a soul or not. Lorne is not evil. Clem is not evil.
Evil is a point of view, as is good. Do humans think it’s evil to eat a steak? Most of them don’t, except for the vegetarians. So, why would vampires see it as evil to eat their natural food source?
Angelus was a vampire who was more evil then the rest, but not because he killed more, but because of how he did it. He tortured people mentally and physically, he broke them down before he killed them. He took pleasure in that. Look at what he did to Drusilla, that was evil. Angel says that himself in Damage, “I was only in it for the evil. I would have considered Dana a masterpiece.”
Spike, he says it himself in Damage, “You know for a demon, I never really thought about the nature of evil. I was in it for the rush, the crunch.” For Spike, being a vampire was a way of doing away with the rules of the society that scorned him, to be better than he was before, almost a high. He fought and killed Slayers for the rush, the fight he wasn’t sure he was going to win.
Humans have souls but they still do evil things. Willow tried to destroy the world, she was driven by revenge but she still has a soul. Giles killed Ben, he was driven by love and the need to protect the world, but he still did murder. Faith got driven over the edge by her own darker nature, but she managed with some help to bring herself back. Warren is evil, he shoots and kills a lot of innocent people. Buffy's darker nature has even been brought out in the series. In the episode Ted she beats her mother's new boyfriend and thinks she killed him when she lost control before they discover he's a robot. It still wasn't a good thing to do, but it's brushed off once it was discovered Ted wasn't human, which isn't right. Buffy has a tendency to hit first, ask questions later, and that is a problem. In Dead Things, no matter than Spike is a vampire, it isn't right for her to beat him up in a alley, turn his face into a hamburger, and leave him to die. Human serial killers are catergorized as having no conscience, but they still have a soul.
And now I think I should stop before I take over this whole thread, lol. Can you tell I've thought about this alot?
A soul is basically, if you want to be religious about it, the part of you that stays alive after you die. That means heaven, hell, reincarnation your soul goes into another body, anything like that. It's not a conscience, which is part of nature vs nurture, or emotions which come from your brain and your heart. Right and wrong has to be taught to people, it's not an innate part of anyone. Your culture and your society dictate what you see as right or wrong. Some cultures think it's okay to eat dogs, while some would be absolutely horrified by it. Some people think the death penalty is a good thing, and some people don't. Right and wrong is something you learn, something that's taught to you, not something you know instinctively.
I think that Dawn has a conscience, innocence, and the memories of being raised as a good person by a loving mother, I'm not counting Hank.
A soul doesn't make you good or evil, your inner nature does that. Vampires have a demon in them, which can effectively make them ignore their conscience. How can they survive really, if every time they went to bite someone, their conscience kicked in? In season one, before the whole Angel/Angelus mythos, demons and vampires had souls. A demon soul, as Giles explained in the second episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It was only after the writer's had backed themselves into a corner that the soul/soulless thing came into being, and it's only with Angel is that a problem. Spike, Drusilla, Darla, Harmony, James, Elizabeth, they all could love just fine with no soul. Drusilla says that herself in crush, 'Oh, we can love quite well, if not wisely.'
And I also don’t buy the Angel and Angelus are separate people. If they were, then why does Angel need redemption for all the bad things Angelus did? He could love. He could deal with loving Darla because she was a vampire, and it was a possessive and dark vampire love. With Buffy, it was human feelings and that disgusted him, and would have made Drusilla’s fate look merciful with what he would have done to Buffy for making him feel that way. Spike is mostly the same person soulless and souled, except when he’s souled his conscience is heightened. He still loves just as deeply, he’s still the same personality that grew over the years from the shy human poet, to who he was later. In a way, Spike is still that same shy poet, he loves with a poet’s heart, he is still scorned by society, and he is still as insecure as he always was. He just covers up that insecurity, like Faith, with barbs and sarcastic remarks.
I think the more evil you are as a vampire depends upon the person you were as a human.
Liam: Was a drunken man who slept with every woman in the town, hated his family and stole money from them. When becoming a vampire, he slaughtered his whole town and family.
Drusilla: Was an innocent, pious girl who wanted to be a nun, cursed with a gift that was seen as evil by her family and society. Turned insane by Angelus. If she wasn’t the same person as a vampire that she was as a human, she wouldn’t be insane.
Darla: A bitter woman, dying of syphilis in bed and given up on the idea of god. She is not much different as a vampire, she is still a bitter woman, that looks out for herself first and foremost.
William: A shy man, who society scorned and loved poetry, and a devoted son to his mother. When becoming a vampire the first thing he does is go to his mother, to try to cure her of her life threatening illness and make her better by turning her. That’s not something evil, that is something still loving. You can see his evolution from William to Spike in the flashbacks, most of it was caused by Angelus’ manipulations, Spike even explains that in their fight in the episode Destiny.
Harmony: Still the same vapid, self centered cheerleader she always was. And not very good at being evil. Basically she’s just a vamp version of the high school bi*ch she was.
Vampire Willow: The same as Willow when Willow went evil in season six. Willow is just a version of her, with all her taught, human inhibitions suppressed. She’s Willow’s darker nature brought to light. Angel was even about to say in that episode that what Buffy was saying about the vampire not being Willow wasn’t true before she cut him off.
Demons. Not all demons are evil, but no one ever said if they had a soul or not. Lorne is not evil. Clem is not evil.
Evil is a point of view, as is good. Do humans think it’s evil to eat a steak? Most of them don’t, except for the vegetarians. So, why would vampires see it as evil to eat their natural food source?
Angelus was a vampire who was more evil then the rest, but not because he killed more, but because of how he did it. He tortured people mentally and physically, he broke them down before he killed them. He took pleasure in that. Look at what he did to Drusilla, that was evil. Angel says that himself in Damage, “I was only in it for the evil. I would have considered Dana a masterpiece.”
Spike, he says it himself in Damage, “You know for a demon, I never really thought about the nature of evil. I was in it for the rush, the crunch.” For Spike, being a vampire was a way of doing away with the rules of the society that scorned him, to be better than he was before, almost a high. He fought and killed Slayers for the rush, the fight he wasn’t sure he was going to win.
Humans have souls but they still do evil things. Willow tried to destroy the world, she was driven by revenge but she still has a soul. Giles killed Ben, he was driven by love and the need to protect the world, but he still did murder. Faith got driven over the edge by her own darker nature, but she managed with some help to bring herself back. Warren is evil, he shoots and kills a lot of innocent people. Buffy's darker nature has even been brought out in the series. In the episode Ted she beats her mother's new boyfriend and thinks she killed him when she lost control before they discover he's a robot. It still wasn't a good thing to do, but it's brushed off once it was discovered Ted wasn't human, which isn't right. Buffy has a tendency to hit first, ask questions later, and that is a problem. In Dead Things, no matter than Spike is a vampire, it isn't right for her to beat him up in a alley, turn his face into a hamburger, and leave him to die. Human serial killers are catergorized as having no conscience, but they still have a soul.
And now I think I should stop before I take over this whole thread, lol. Can you tell I've thought about this alot?
last edited over a year ago
