Debate Abortion - pro-choice or pro-life?

kool123 posted on Apr 20, 2013 at 01:59PM
So I've been studying moral issues at school and I thought I'd start a forum about the abortion arguments. :) Personally, I am pro-choice, and strongly believe that a woman should have the freedom to decide whether she wants an abortion or not, if it will benefit her, the child, or both. I also think that abortion is NOT murder; the baby is not a full human being until it is born.
This is my personal opinion on the whole thing, and feel free to discuss your opinions below, but I will not tolerate any offensive comments made about other people's opinions since that is just a lack of respect.
Anyway, go ahead and debate, people! :)

Debate 9 replies

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over a year ago peacebaby7 said…
I believe that there are only two exceptions:
1) If the mother's life is at stake. If abortion is the only way to save the mother's life, so be it. That way, the woman can live on to have another child and be able to care for it.
2) If the baby is suffering some sort of life-threatening condition. I wouldn't want to kill my child because of this, but I more couldn't bear the thought of it suffering.

Abortion is wrong in any other situation. If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. I don't care of you're using condemns or taking birth control. They're not full-proof. The child shouldn't be punished because you couldn't keep your pants zipped up. And if one is impregnated by rape, I'm sorry it happened, but the baby shouldn't be punished for that either. And a fetus isn't just a clump of cells. We're ALL clumps of cells. Every living thing is, no matter how early the stage. Would you kill someone who was 20 years old? What if they were 10? 5? A month old? How many cells does a fetus need to develop for you to consider it human?

Do you even know what a baby goes through when your aborting it? The pain and agony of the burning it feels as it dies before it even gets to know the world? I think it's wrong and inhumane.

And please no hate. This is my opinion and nothing will change that.
whiteflame55 commented…
Just one thing I'd like to note. Since most babies are aborted well before they have a developed nervous system, aborting them doesn't tend to cause pain. I don't think that should be a sticking point on your side anyway. Why not just stick with "you're killing millions of babies" and leave it at that? over a year ago
peacebaby7 commented…
Eh, but it's still the principle. over a year ago
zanhar1 commented…
Rape victims? over a year ago
over a year ago whiteflame55 said…
I'll explain my view as simply as I can. Essentially, I feel that there is no way to further restrict or completely remove abortion from the picture without causing severe harms in society. We know quite well what people do when access to legal abortion is lost, and I'd rather not have the days of coat hangers back. There's no amount of checks or certainties we can put into the system to ensure that every woman with a medical need is covered because we cannot possibly define what a medical need is. There's no certainty that we can ensure that all victims of rape are given access. There's no way to deal with the fact that those opposed to abortion, even among doctors, will always try to reduce its usage if given the opportunity. No matter what system we impose, increasing restrictions on abortions will harm mothers.

And that's where I start to have issues. These are the people producing the children, right? They're the ones capable of conceiving again and giving birth to another child. Those potential children matter as well, do they not? But it goes beyond that. These are also living, breathing adults, capable of living separately from another being. Their lives, health and psyche should come first, always, because they are far more certain to continue living and being a part of society at large. A fetus has a chance at life, and that chance continues to improve as it continues to gestate, but no matter what point you pick, it will not be 100% until it leaves the womb and has the cord cut. The same cannot be said for the potential mother, or for any being that already exists outside the womb.

But I would also say that there's a scientific concern as well. From my perspective, the point of the pro-life movement that human life, in any form, should be treated as a full human being is infinitely regressive. Many of them look to the zygote as the start of life. Well, that treats in vitro fertilization as murder (which seems absurd to me, because it's the only way that life would be born in the first place), but fine, let's mark that as the start. Why do we pick that time? There is something miraculous happening, to an extent. There's meiosis occurring within those cells, and DNA from one parent is crossing over with DNA from another. But really, the only thing that makes this different is that a new set of DNA is being hybridized from the two, and I don't think that should signify the creation of a human being, no more than someone crossing two genes in any given lab should be thought of as creating a new life form. So it seems to me that the best argument they have is that it's the "start of life." But why isn't a sperm and ovum the start of life? Sure, they're not fused yet, but they have the potential to be fused, and to create a life. A zygote has the potential to make life as well, though it's still rather low at that stage. And if a sperm and ovum is potential life, how about the stem cells that created them? And if they're potential life, then what about all stem cells in the adult creating them? We can keep going here, but needless to say, I find the point lacking some reasonability.

I realize I made this longer than intended. Nonetheless, I have just one last thing to say. I am not opposed to the idea of fewer abortions. I don't think many people in this world view a woman getting an abortion for no sake but her own as a good thing. I simply detest the idea of punishing every woman for their mistakes.
audreygrace412 commented…
I completely agree with your point about the fact that the mother (and father) are already here and alive so their positions should take precedence. I also personally think since they are the ones responsible for raising and funding the child, that it's very unfair to force that kind of pressure and burden on someone else when there is a choice not to. From my point of view, I think of the children and explaining to them why they were brought into such unstable situations where they subconsciously feel how unwanted they really are and the harsh lives that they sometimes face as a result. In those situations, it isn't just the parents being punished for their mistakes but the children being punished for their parents' mistakes as well. over a year ago
over a year ago LGYCE said…
Abortion is murder. There's no other possible explanation. Yes, they might not be fully capable of conscious thought or feeling pain. But neither are adults in comas. Does that make it okay to kill them? Absolutely not! Babies have just as much a chance of surviving as people in comas. Why is it okay to kill one and not the other? Sure, maybe a woman is saved pain and money, but if that makes murder okay, I'd be allowed to kill anyone who bullied me for lunch money.
And maybe letting a child live isn't always the best. Maybe they would have grown up to be a criminal. But they also could have grown up into a doctor who saves lives, or a national leader who brings peace, or that friendly guy down the street willing to lend a hand when you need it most. And if the world goes to hell, you can live with the knowledge that every child who was aborted could have helped bring peace if they lived. They might not have, but we'll never know, because they're dead.
prinelsa commented…
I think it would be more effective if you lay out all your points instead of trying to be a hero,thanks. over a year ago
tamore commented…
Freakonomics has a theory that crime dropped drastically in the 90s because of Roe v. Wade legalizing abortion. Many women who get abortions are poor women who can't afford to raise a kid well and poor kids are more likely to become criminals. Hence, abortion lowers crime rates. Food for thought. over a year ago
over a year ago uploaded900 said…
Pro-Choice. It's a woman's body and she has the right to do whatever she wants with it. People who are pro-life seem to be valuing the unborn baby's life over the poor woman. (Keep in mind what's inside of her doesn't have any feelings yet.) With that logic anytime anyone used condoms murder is committed because you know, one of those sperm could of been a living being.
over a year ago bonjerr said…
Pro-choice. The baby shouldn't have to suffer when the mother is not even ready to raise the child. She is doing it a huge justice by waiting until she is ready to have one. I don't believe abortion is murder. I think it is a responsible choice to make if your not ready.
over a year ago KataraLover said…
I am pro-life. First of all, there are cases where I think abortion is alright. First being if the woman's life is at stake because the baby isn't likely to live either, so there's no reason to risk her life, especially when there is just a small chance of the child living. Second being if the pregnancy is the product of incest because that child will have terrible health issues and suffer all it's life with those issues and most of the time they don't even live long in their early adult lives. That's not living, that's just causing suffering for a child. Lastly being if the girl is at an age where her body has not developed enough to be able to handle child birth. I mean, someone who is 12, 13, or 14 (MAYBE 15) wouldn't be developed enough to handle giving birth as well as someone older. Their bodies would be very damaged and it could cause death and a lot of the time the child will die too.

However, any other case, I would just say it's wrong and murder for selfish reasons. It's true a lot of the time it is because of rape but it's NOT fair to blame an innocent baby for something that someone else did to you. That's the same as victim-blaming, which is SICK! But lets face it, most of the time abortion is the result of stupid people who didn't have the common sense to get condoms and birth control to make sure they wouldn't get pregnant. It's the same as a man abandoning his wife and children to run away from his responsibilities, except it's a woman running away from her responsibilities by killing an innocent life. Just because the baby isn't born yet, it doesn't mean his or her life doesn't matter. And trying to justify it by trying to compare it to a plant or a sperm or whatever, is just ridiculous. Those things aren't comparable to a human life. There are other options besides abortion, but most abortions are just women wanting the easy way out and running away from their responsibilities for their own reasons.
zanhar1 commented…
In the case of rape, it sure as hell isn't the mother's fault either. This actually came up in the debate I linked below. To this I ask; What about the rape victims who would be twice as traumatized by being forced to carry a reminder of what was forced upon them? The rape victim already has buckets of stress and trauma to cope with. Why add another? The fetus is unthinking and doesn't know what's happening when it's being terminated. The mother does. And an abortion isn't an easy choice for the mom to make. over a year ago
zanhar1 commented…
"But lets face it, most of the time abortion is the result of stupid people who didn't have the common sense to get condoms and birth control to make sure they wouldn't get pregnant." My response to this was stated in my second comment; I'd like to make is that so many pro-lifers like to use a baby as a punishment. Like you had sex now you get to deal with the consequences. And that's not right. A baby is not and shouldn't be used as a punishment. Condoms break, accidents happen. Teens are irresponsible, their brains aren't fully developed (and people are expecting them to help a kid develop???) of course bad choices are going to be made. Teens literally don't have that foresight yet; they still have the 'it can't happen to me' reckless mentality. If a kid gets into a car with a drunk friend does he or she deserve to die or be permanently handicapped? over a year ago
zanhar1 commented…
" And trying to justify it by trying to compare it to a plant or a sperm or whatever, is just ridiculous." But what of comparing it to an adult human life? Are you saying that a fetus that hasn't yet developed thinking capacity is more important than a woman who is fully aware. I stated below (and again, a warning for being morbid af) I'd kill myself I was forced to carry a baby. A fetus is not aware of what's going on yet. A teen or an adult is. Sure a fetus isn't just some parasite, I agree there. But I also think that a developed human and their well-being takes priority. In the same vain I saw a very interesting question and I'll ask it here. You're in a burning room there is a screaming and crying toddler and a thousand embryos that are able to be fertilized eventually. You can only save one; are you gonna grab the child or the embryos. There is no option C; option C is everyone dies. over a year ago
zanhar1 commented…
Also, I hope that I didn't come off as rude or condescending! I chose to reply to your post instead of the others because it is the newest and I don't think that the others are around anymore to debate with. over a year ago
over a year ago zanhar1 said…
I responded to a similar question here; link
I am extremely pro-choice.

My responses to a debate I had there are the following;

"What about the people who are afraid of carrying a baby. What about the rape victims who would be twice as traumatized by being forced to carry a reminder of what was forced upon them? That's not a gift in any way. Babies born out of love are gifts; babies made by domination and force, to me that's very far from a gift.
By carrying the baby I meant that they are afraid of pregnancy itself and the changes pregnancy makes to the body. Adoption can't help that. I for one cannot see myself pregnant at all I think it would be very awkward and uncomfortable which is one of the main reasons why I'm asexual. If I'm being very honest I don't see it as murder because at this point its still just a fetus. I think that the psyche of someone who has already been born and developed a complex psyche takes precedence over a being that has yet to enter the world. I don't mean to sound horrible but I don't feel as if it's murder because technically the fetus isn't sentient yet. No the fetus didn't commit the crime but neither did the mother so she shouldn't be forced to bare the burdens of a pregnancy if she isn't mentally or physically prepared to do so. Tbh I feel like I would go insane if I was forced to do so. Now I do think that an abortion should be had in the early stages of pregnancy before the fetus really begins to develop though.

Not everyone is asexual. Not everyone wants to be. Just like homosexuality and heterosexuality, it's not a choice. Abstinence is a thing (I think it's more responsible) but it isn't for everyone. People can want sex but not a child. A married couple can want sex but not a child. Even if protection is used, unfortunately an accident can still happen. I am going to be extremely brutally honest here; if i was raped and got pregnant and was told I had to keep it, I'd probably kill myself. At which point the baby would die anyways. At which point two lives are lost instead of one. I feel as though I'm not the only one who would do that either. Not to mention the people who would try to preform an abortion on themselves. It has the inherent capacity yes, but it doesn't have it yet so it can't feel and comprehend in the way the mother can. I believe that what makes a human a human is their soul/consciousness; that early on the fetus is still just a fetus. And for that the mother's life matters more to me. Do I feel bad for the baby to be? Yes, decisions like these are tough. This is a very tricky question that usually has a sad outcome. But I support mom's having a choice.

As for the coma thing; sorry that I'm getting so dark here. But I've always been a pull the plug kind of person. If quality of life is diminishing and odds of recovery are slim I believe that pulling the plug is the right thing to do unless the person stated not to. I'd want the plug pulled if my odds were impossible. Because again, it's not black and white. The difference between a reversible coma taking away cognitive function and a fetus is that the fetus never developed a consciousness in the first place. A coma patient did and will probably get it back when they wake up. A coma patient was fully developed and even in the coma is still fully developed. You don't lose your morals when you go to sleep. In other words it isn't about functioning; it's about the personality and the fact that the person has truly been alive. Yes a fetus is a live but it hasn't lived. Yes a fetus is alive but it can't think complexly and feel the full dismay that an unwilling mother would.

But none of this really matters because, as I said; I feel like abortions strictly have to be done in the early stages unless there is an emergency like the baby being a major health risk to the mother or something of the sort.
over a year ago zanhar1 said…
A newer point I'd like to make is that so many pro-lifers like to use a baby as a punishment. Like you had sex now you get to deal with the consequences. And that's not right. Not to the mother and not to the baby. People have sex. Teens have sex. That's just how it is. And if a pregnancy happens because of it, the fetus shouldn't be used as a, "ha ha, that's what you get!" To me that's just sick and twisted.

Also lets consider financial stability. People who are ready and trying to have kids sometimes find that the financial burden is more than they can handle. A teenager and/or someone who is totally unprepared for a baby sure as hell won't have the money to raise the kid in a safe environment.

"But adoption is an option!"

The doctor appointments (which should be pretty regular), the pregnancy care supplies, the hospital visit for the childbirth itself, and possible fees to put a baby up for adoption are ludicrously expensive. Yeah an abortion costs money too but I can imagine that it doesn't cost as much as the combined total of all of the above. Not to mention that eventually time off of work or (God forbid) high school is gonna happen. Therefore worsening the money situation and/or majorly hindering education.

Also adoption doesn't eliminate fear. I mentioned above that some people are horrified at the thought of childbearing. Be it the pain of child birth or the insecurities bought about by the changes in the body and hormones. There is exactly nothing that appeals to me about the thought of a large head squeezing out of a tiny hole. Frankly, I personally, am so small that it could probably kill me. I'd probably have to have a C Section. And the process of carrying it; the back aches, the crushing of the organs, the breathing trouble, the morning sickness. My mom said that when I was a fetus I wedged my foot between her ribs and it was hella uncomfortable. Some people don't want that pain/can't tolerate it.

I feel like some people are uncomfortable with the idea of a baby kicking. That would just be so weird and horrifying to me. Some people fear weight gain which is something that can happen during a pregnancy. Others fear the lack of control; hormones can make a mom more emotional. They can create cravings. I for one like to be in full control and don't like the idea of a pregnancy influencing how I act.

And Christ, the emotional tax it would be to carry a baby in high school. High schoolers already spread rumors about people being sluts and whores. I can only imagine how much worse it would be when the evidence of intercourse is plainly visible. The bullying that a teen mom can experience is probably from hell. At best there'd be a lot of uncomfortable stares. High school is hard and awkward enough without a massive baby bump. You get teased as it is.

Bullying aside, an education is much harder to get with a pregnancy; between missing days due to doctor appointment and sick days. It's probably much harder to concentrate. Frequent trips to the bathroom don't help either. I just can't see it being easy for anyone to be able to learn while carrying a child. Most ladies have trouble focusing when they're on their periods.

All of this can lead to a cocktail of negative emotions. It can lead to depression, anxiety, and unhealthy amounts of stress that can impact the fetus too. No one can convince me that a fetus takes priority over the mental and physical well-being of someone already fully alive and cognisent. Someone who actually has an awareness and understanding of what's going on with their body and with the world around them.

I just can't see anything good coming out of forcing a mother to carry a baby that she doesn't want/can't realistically care for.
ThePrincesTale commented…
Really good point about some arguments "using the baby as a punishment", I see this allll the time. Like if "if this [14 year old girl] was prepared to have sex, she should've been prepared to get pregnant!". Left unspoken in that last part is "she should be prepared to carry the foetus for 9 months, through physical and emotional pain, and then give birth (which remains one of the riskiest things a woman does in her life)". Uh, no. over a year ago
ThePrincesTale commented…
"No one can convince me that a fetus takes priority over the mental and physical well-being of someone already fully alive and cognisent. Someone who actually has an awareness and understanding of what's going on with their body and with the world around them" 👏 👏 👏 over a year ago
zanhar1 commented…
Anyways, point is; yeah, is someone who doesn't want kids just supposed to repress the urges until they go mad? over a year ago
over a year ago ThePrincesTale said…
Then I grew up and realised that sexual feelings are entirely natural/human, and that acting on them rather than repressing them doesn't mean you deserve to have your life thrown into turmoil by a pregnancy. By some anti-abortion arguments I've seen, you either have to be ready for the possibility of having a child or else you have to just be a virgin til the end of your days. So women who want to remain childless can never have a sex life? Lol
ThePrincesTale commented…
I was dumb and accidentally made this a post instead of a comment over a year ago
ThePrincesTale commented…
why isn't fanpop letting me delete it over a year ago
zanhar1 commented…
But fanpop doesn't let you delete polls so this might be stuck here lmao. over a year ago