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Debate If we completely abolish only ONE thing completely out of the following, what would you make non-existant?
64 fans picked: |
Racism.
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Sexism.
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homophobia.
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Make your pick! | next poll >> |
Not racism because:
I believe we've (MOSTLY) already accomplished that. Sure, there are still jokes about the different nationality on TV, but that's practically every country but America, but think about it. All the races are entitled to the same education, job opportunities, and the president of the united states is mixed race. So, seeing as roughly 0.01 percent of everyone is racist, i believe, although it would be great if that didn't exist at all, that we've already achieved this goal. And good thing too!
Not homophobia because-
Well, homophobia annoys the----Ur, mappa's out of me!!! One of my best friends is gay, and no, he does not act like a women. (Eye roll) He's actually pretty much like anyone other guy i know, basically.
However, 1 in 10 people are gay, and 5 in 10 people are women so i suppose....
It's women because:
They say we've achieved woman's rights.
Well, in my country (england) men get paid one fifth more than women for doing the same job, unlike gay people.
1 in 4 women in my country are raped.
and family guy is pure evil, sexist little b******s. (And they ripped off the simpsons. just saying.)
I think casual sexism is more accepted by our society too (it may seem a trifling example, but look at the popularity of those stupid 'make me a sandwich/get back in the kitchen' jokes. I can't imagine an openly racist or homophobic joke getting the same level of casual acceptance with so little judgement attached).
I also think without sexism homophobia would be eased. A lot of insults I've heard thrown at gay people are linked to sexism/gender stereotypes (Gay men stereotyped as effeminate, homophobia born of defensiveness against being called gay due to the idea of it being an insult to your manhood, lesbians called 'butch' etc). I'm not saying sexism vanishing would make homophobia vanish, but I do think it would have the potential to ease it, so I see it as the only one in the list that could positively affect more than one of the options.
I believe we've (MOSTLY) already accomplished that... All the races are entitled to the same education, job opportunities, and the president of the united states is mixed race. So, seeing as roughly 0.01 percent of everyone is racist, i believe, although it would be great if that didn't exist at all, that we've already achieved this goal."
That's why the majority of America (and, as I understand it, Britain) still remains vastly racially divided geographically, with minorities in the poorest areas, minority students score the lowest on standardized tests aimed at middle class white students, and forty percent of American schools have zero teachers of color on staff.
Not to mention the fact that African Americans comprise more than 37% of people arrested for drug use, 59% of those convicted for drug use, and 74% of those sentenced to prison for drug use, but only 15% of American drug users. What does that mean, Cinders? you ask. It means that even though 15 out of 100 drug-using Americans in the US are Black, Blacks still make up the vast majority of people arrested for drug use - 74 out of every hundred people sentenced to prison for it, in fact. How does that make sense to you?
But yeah, that sounds like we're over racism to me.
Minorities are not entitled to the same education as Whites, even if we pretend that they are. They are not. MermaidTail said she felt that sexism is something that's just accepted by society - and this is true. With racism, for Whites, it's even worse than that - we act like we've already conquored it. We claim "Equal rights for all" and celebrate MLK Day and give a month to every racial and ethnic minority group in the country (except Arab Americans), and say, "There, see? No more racism." Meanwhile, we segregate our lowest earners, mostly Blacks and Latinos, in our poorest neighborhoods, where there's gang violence and no jobs, and then tell their children, "Oh yeah, you can go to the local public school with the White kids - see? We're not racist." So they do, and they fall asleep in class because they were up all night listening to gunshots, and then they get penalized for not scoring as high as their White peers, who don't have that same problem.
America is economically and racially divided, and it's a schism that most people, especially Whites, don't even notice because they aren't a part of it. They should be a part of it. White Americans benefit from White privilege every day and we don't even realize it. I honestly didn't even realize it, until I became a teacher.
A few quotes from Peggy McIntosh's beautiful and powerful article: "link"
"I have often noticed men’s unwillingness to grant that they are over privileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to improve women’s status, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can’t or won’t support the idea of lessening men’s... I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege."
"Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are justly seen as oppressive, even when we don’t see ourselves that way."
"Whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work which will allow “them“ to be more like “us.”"
"I did not see myself as a racist because I was taught to recognize racism only in individual acts of meanness by members of my group, never in invisible systems conferring unsought racial dominance on my group from birth."
I keep editing this comment, the more I think of things to rant about, but this is the last time.
Alex Kotlowitz, author of link, shares an experience he had doing research in one of the poorest neighborhoods in Chicago: "I asked Lafeyette what I thought was a very innocent question to ask a twelve-year-old boy, and that is 'What do you want to be when you grow up?' And Lafeyette said to me, 'If I grow up, I want to be a bus driver.' If, not when... Race is the fissure that has defined the American landscape over this last century. And that crack is still there. It may not be as wide or as deep as it once was, but we would be foolish to think that race no longer matters."
And don't get me started on racism against Arabs and Arab Americans!
link.
These are the messages we're sending to our children, and it just breaks my heart. Like Peggy McIntosh said, we (the White majority) think that we're helping "them" (the minorities) by teaching them how to become more like us, and the way we live.
OK, I've really ranted enough on this topic.
It's also possible for a homosexual to avoid the company of homophobics and thus not let their opinions affect you in the slighest. You don't need to hang out with these kinds of people. In job interviews nobody sees straight on that you're homosexual and you might not need to bring it up at all. As with racism, I think homophobia will eventually disappear once people get used to the idea.
Whereas sexism can't be avoided because women and men do need to interact with each other for biological reasons. A woman can't move somewhere where there's only other women living with her, and a woman can't pretend to be a man in a job interview. Chances are that every woman will experience sexism in their life time, be it lower wages or a belittling attitude or the expectations to undertake traditional jobs or gender roles. I think that women and men will always be treated somewhat differently because of their gender and it will be very difficult to change that.
That theory doesn't really work for all ethnic groups. The pilgrims who came to America conquered the Native Americans (the indigenous people who were already living here) and took over their land, forcing them unto reservations. They can't live in their own country - it's taken over. They have no where to go.
It's also possible for a homosexual to avoid the company of homophobics and thus not let their opinions affect you in the slighest.
No, it's not. Homophobes are everywhere and homophobic slurs are tossed around like they're nothing. You can chose not to be friends with them, but there still in your classes, at your work, at your church. There really isn't anyway to avoid homophobes - it's like avoiding people with a particular hair or eye color.
An isolationist argument, in an increasingly globalized world? Are you kidding? Especially in places like Europe and the United States where there are high immigrant populations. People can't just lock themselves inside and hope they never meet someone of another race, moreover, they shouldn't have to. You can't blame racism on the natural migration of people. Most people don't just move from one place to another on a whim, or because they feel like it, or want to challenge themselves, they do so out of necessity, because they are broke, because they're starving, because they're being persecuted, because they're refugees... I'm sorry but, "If you don't want to be discriminated against for your race, then don't go somewhere where you aren't the majority," is not only unaware, it's blaming the victim for the prejudice. We can't, and shouldn't, avoid this issue because without treatment, the disease will fester and spread.
The only people who don't encounter racism in their daily lives are the majority race. I've been the minority race, and I'm not going to claim I know what it's like in Europe or America to be the minority, but I do know how uncomfortable it made me sometimes. I've also heard the arguments blaming sexual assaults on White women in non-White cultures (Asian and Arab specifically) on their race.
All of these cause are interconnected, and all of them matter severely, I think we all agree on that, and I am definitely a feminist and a fighter of LGBT rights. But while sexism victimizes fifty percent of the world, racism victimizes all of it. And so many people pretend that it's not important. And that bothers me, when I see institutionalized racism every day in my job, and the effects it has on our youth. I know my rant was long, especially for the tl;dr crowd, but take this away from it, bolded for emphasis:
"I did not see myself as a racist because I was taught to recognize racism only in individual acts of meanness by members of my group, never in invisible systems conferring unsought racial dominance on my group from birth."
I am from Europe, but where I live there are not many immigrants. Maybe my opinion differs from yours because of that, as I haven't experienced globalization the way you perhaps have.
And the argument "It's not important because it can be avoided" (even if it were true) isn't acceptable for me, because we shouldn't avoid the problem, because that tacitly implies that we support the problem.
And, like I said, the people who claim that racism isn't a problem are members of the majority race (be that being racially Chinese in China, or being racially White in America and Europe) who refuse to see it.
Sudan, Rwanda, India/Pakistan, Armenia, Kosovo, Israel/Palestine - all of these are wars that are fueled by and sometimes even caused by racial and ethnic tensions in the area. Now, I loathe sexism as much as the next informed individual, and it's caused its own special breed of violence and war crimes. But the "Battle of the Sexes" is just philosophical and often for fun. These are real conflicts, and they won't just "go away" if we give them time to acclimate.
My personal experience is that no woman can avoid sexism because that's what I have witnessed. I live in a country where we have both a female president and a prime minister and we are supposently very anti-sexism, and yet _every_ woman that I know have experienced sexism in their lives.
I never said that the battle against racism is somehow less important than the battle against homophobia or sexism, but I was picking which attitude I'd wish was completely abolished. IMO sexism is the hardest one to abolish, so I chose that. Sorry if I offended you by doing so.
Just as no woman can avoid sexism, no person living in a country or culture in which they are not the majority race can avoid racism. Like I said, it's institutionalized and ingrained in our society so far beyond individual incidences of bigotry. My issue is that this affects and damages so much that people don't see. For example, minorities are disproportionately represented on welfare, in poverty, and in prisons, due to the fact that we have marginalized and subsequently persecute our minority populations. While sexism has its own detriments to society, the problems of racism are so far reaching, it baffles me. A middle class White girl in America often has more opportunities than a lower class Black boy. And yes - in the US, class and race are very intertwined, for reasons mentioned earlier.
And that reminds me - @Monrose of course it's for all races. I chose Blacks in America as an example, and alluded to Arab Americans and Latinos, who have similar stories. But I focused on one racial group A) because they are not an immigrant group, and therefore provide a unique example of explicitly racism, and not just xenophobia, and B) because the statistics surrounding them, specifically, as a racial group in poverty, are so telling to me.
The really funny thing about this debate is, to me, that I actually was not going to pick one, purely because I thought they were all interconnected - which they are. Sex and gender has so much to do with race and ethnicity, which are both related to sexual orientation and gender identity. And hate is hate wherever you find it, institutionalized privilege, whether it be heteronormative, male, or white, is still privilege wherever you find it.
Still, what bothered me were the comments that claimed that racism was somehow not as wide-spread as sexism, because sexism affects half the world. My argument is that racism is as widespread as sexism, because it exists not only in, as McIntosh puts it, "individual acts of meanness," but in "invisible systems" and assumptions, in the very way that our society works and sees the world, which (intentionally or not) paints the White Race as dominant.
Also, the difference in our opinions is caused by the fact that in the US there have been generations of ethnic immigrants who have already considered the US as their home, and yet they might experience racism in their every-day lives, which makes the situations sound very hopeless. In here, most ethnic people have moved here within the last 20 years or so and it's sort of a new thing. The truth is that Finland needs immigrants because we need more population, and the fastest way is to let in immigrants. That's why a lot of Finns are just glad to have foreigners move in instead of the common opinion that "the foreigners will just steal our jobs away."
Either way, I am positive that racism is something that can be defeated, because I don't think it is as large a problem in most countries as it is in the US.
A third example, and I have relented from bringing it up because it feels like a cheap shot, is ethnic cleansing and genocide, the kind of which Hitler did in Europe. And Hitler comes up so much in "debate" now that when I use him as a legitimate example, it makes me feel like I'm using some dirty trick to prove my point. But that's what the Holocaust was. That's what Darfur and Armenia and Rwanda are.
You bring up that there are generations of immigration here in the US, and yet people who have been here for generations are still discriminated against, are marginalized, and suffer from institutionalized racism. And you admit this feels hopeless, and yet you express hope that Europe won't go that same route, and that they will get used to the immigrants, as soon as they settle in and, potentially, acclimate to the dominant culture as many expect immigrants to do. Other than places with no or negative population growth like Finland, what, in your opinion, makes Italy, France, and the UK, three countries with huge immigration problems and racial tensions, any different than the United States in that regard?
Racism cannot be defeated by just letting it go any more than sexism can be defeated by just letting it go and letting people get used to it.
Either way, these are just my opinions. You seem to be very well informed of these matters and if you say that racism is present everywhere and it can't be changed, I am inclined to believe you up to some degree. My personal pick is still sexism though, for reasons I mentioned above.
I need to go now but I'll check in later!
Governments providing those services are easier said than done. Even in the US. One fear people have here is illegal immigrants "leeching" off of American services, like public education, and bring the rest of us down because of it. Because America is struggling to support its growing population already. It's one thing to hope or think that Europe and Asia are prepared for immigrants, but it's another thing to be prepared. But I agree - a lack of services and overpopulation does drive crime and ignites fear, which is what leads to racism. Which is why these issues also need to be addressed when combating racism. In America, that means first admitting that race and poverty are inextricably connected, and then doing something to improve those circumstances. That gets into the politics of things, but basically...
I don't think it's naive necessarily. You would be the expert on Finland, after all. The only relationship I have to the country is knowing a handful of people who live there. I know nothing about its population or economy beyond what my encyclopedias tell me. Still, I don't know what makes Europe, Western or otherwise, a different circumstance than the United States, which, in the beginning, also welcomed immigrants, until the slogan "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free," was heard by a few too many poor, tired, huddled masses. And then, our slogan became something along the lines of "This is Amurka, Speak English!"
We can't predict the future. But immigration isn't the cause of racism, either. Simply lack of experience... We hold ideas and conceptions about entire racial groups, ethnicities, and nationalities from stereotypes we've heard from friends and family, and what we see on our TV, and what we read in books. And even if you've never met someone of a certain race in your life, you have ideas about what they are like. That, by its very definition, is what prejudice is. Pre-judging, based on second and third hand information.
I said earlier that every minority in a majority culture has experienced racism. Everyone, period, has prejudicial conceptions of some group - mostly, groups they have zero experience with, because they have zero experience with that group. It's impersonal. They don't know anyone to tell them otherwise. And this is as true of me, as it is of anyone else. And I consider myself a global citizen and a traveler. But I have my prejudices too. And prejudice leads to racism.
About Europe's situation; I don't think that welcoming immigrants with open arms is the answer at all. I think they should be accepted gradually, not one big mass at once but instead a steady flow of immigrants. This is what I hope the rest of Europe will do, and so far are doing. My ex-boyfriend was Swedish and so I spent a lot of time in his home city Malmö, which is Sweden's capital of both crime and immigration. They accepted a huge amount of immigrants in at once, the city couldn't really cope with that amount of unrehabilitated immigrants and became vulnerable to a lot of gang activity and crime. I don't think the amount of immigrants on that area is the problem, but the fact that said immigrants never had the time to become accustomed to their new environment by adapting to it, instead just sticking up to their own families and country folk that all moved in at the same time. This makes sense because they speak the same language and share the culture - why would they bother learning Swedish or adapting to the culture, when they don't really need to? If the flow of immigrants had been more gradual I think the situation would be very different. I think the same applies to the US. I'm no expert on that, but I think the problem is that so many immigrants moved in at once and faced by poverty had to resort to crime which caused the majority to create stereotypes. It's a very political thing, and in my opinion talking about politics can't really be avoided when talking about immigration.
I would gladly pick all three but since sexism and homophobia are less common now, in the 21st century I will choose racism.
It's such a horrible thing, to prejudice against another human.
Otherwise known as a minority lesbian.
EDIT: Also, folks, xenophobia isn't racism. They are related, and I did bring it up and discuss it, but they aren't the same. That's been bugging me. Just so everyone is clear on the difference.
-pandawinx.
Yes, white racism exists. And I don't think you're racist for voicing such an opinion. But I have been saying "minority race" for a reason. Having been the minority (White Girl in Egypt), I think I've mentioned, I know how isolating that can feel. I think that it provided a unique perspective for me, as a white woman, to see what it was like to actually be the minority race in a country.
I would also like to retract this statement: "The only people who don't encounter racism in their daily lives are the majority race."
I don't think this is true either. A member of the majority race could, as you mentioned, still encounter racism on behalf of minorities, most of whom have been victimized by the majority in the first place. If that's confusing, consider a gay man yelling at a Christian and calling him intolerant simply because he's Christian. He's probably doing this because he's had bad encounters with Christians in the past, who may have called him worse things than intolerant.
To be aware that Whites are often over-accused of racism is a good thing. And what is often forgotten is that Whites also have a valuable culture, just as Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native People, and Arabs do. It's a similar situation with men, who are often accused of being sexist when they don't mean to be. However, it's also important to keep in mind why we may be over-accusing, and what experiences the people who do this have. As far as the Euro-American White race is concerned, there is a long history of domination and oppression over other races there. And while that part of our history may be over, the fallout of it remains. Look at Sudan, for example. Or, better yet, look at Afghanistan. These conflicts, waged by Janjaweed or Pashtun, can trace their origins back to the delineation of borders in Africa and the Middle East by the colonizing European powers. They found their land split in two or more parts, and/or found themselves suddenly countrymen with sworn enemies.
Closer to home (for Americans) would be the lasting effects of the slave trade, the imported Chinese laborers, the various racially-based immigration quota systems and acts, and, perhaps most recently, the internment of Japanese Americans. Now, some may say that the internments were more xenophobic than racist, and they may be right, but consider this: At the time, the United States and Allied Powers were at war with Italy and Germany, as well as with Japan. Were recent (or even less recent) Italian and German immigrants rounded up and interred? Think about it.
That's a lot of history, guys! Anyways - these events have had consequences on our present day. It's not a coincidence, for example, that the majority of our poorest neighborhoods are disproportionately minorities. It's also no coincidence that Japanese Immigrants are called "the model minority" for trying so hard to acclimate to American culture so rapidly, because we expect immigrants to do that, and when they don't, it scares us (xenophobia again, but relevant), and that fear leads to racist assumptions about these people. Even some Americans, who meet second and third generation Arab Americans, assume that they are "foreign" and secretly a terrorist.
I guess my point is - racism exists in many forms, and Whites are not immune from being the victims of it, especially when they feel as if they have to walk on eggshells around minorities. They shouldn't have to feel that way. But they, and everyone else, including minorities, should be respectful of other races, peoples, and ways of life.
The racial discourse is an important one in which to engage, but too many are afraid to talk about it, for a variety or reasons. I'm glad we are engaging in it here.
And, once again just to clarify/summarize: immigration relates more to xenophobia than racism. But, again, xenophobia and racism are interrelated. Remember, though - to be racist is to be prejudiced against someone because of their race, not nationality or religion. Xenophobia and Sectarianism cover that.
"Viewing me with suspicion is justifiable when you look at the big picture, where even well intentioned white people still don’t have the best track record for effectively dealing with privilege, cultural differences or persistent inequality... Instead of taking offense to intrusive questions or avoiding difficult conversations, I try to embrace them with patience and openness. I make exceptions when someone’s downright rude, but that’s rare. Sometimes I get things right, but often, I figure out later what I wish I would’ve said." [link]
This is what I was trying to say about prejudice against whites. Even stating the idea that we've conquered racism tells me that some people still aren't aware of its effects on society, or the racial privilege the (Western) nations bestow on white people.
Women and girls form a boundless majority of humanity and society, meaning that this many people are discriminated due to their gender...including men when we discuss their being victimized in the problem with sexism.
I say this issue should be abolished first in order to resolve the other two.
EDIT: Choice of words.
What I mean by that is, they will end up with more rights than we do. At the moment here in Australia we have all these things going on with the aboriginal people, on Australia Day they burnt the Australian Flag (now in my eyes that is treason) and yet nothing was done about it, I can imagine what would happen if someone burnt their flag. The same thing goes for job advertisements, I doubt a job requesting "white female" would even get into the newspapers, yet it is accepted for an "aboriginal person" to be requested.
And then there are the immigrants coming in saying that we can no longer celebrate Christmas and Easter in our schools because it is against their religion, but I see it as this is a Christian country and those things should stay as part of it's identity..
I'm not saying that there is none the other way, I know there is plenty.. What I am saying is that the world is coming more to the racism being against whites and not all the other races, yet a blind eye is turned to it.. Equal rights for everyone would be good on this issue
Next would be sexism, again you can't control wither you are born a girl or a boy, so while I do believe to an extent gender roles, I think this is less of a priority for me because there is some difference between males and females that are easier to point out then races who are all male and female.
Lastly and I know a bit controversial homophobia, which I don't like using this word because it is used VERY loosely. No one can really look at you and say what you are unless there is an action that is seen to confirm a suspicion, but other then that no one would really know. This one is more choice-based because you chose what actions you want to do unlike something you can't control like your race or sex.
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