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IsaacKuo's Disney Prince ranking
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Since I did a Disney Princess ranking, I thought I'd do a Disney Prince ranking also. I've switched from using a pencil to a ballpoint pen. My drawing skill has vastly improved since my Disney Princess ranking, so I really don't miss the ability to erase mistakes.
10. John Smith
John Smith is heroic and handsome, but I find his dialog cheesy. More importantly, I just don't care for his attraction to Pocahontas. She's beautiful, but what does he see in her other than that? John Smith and Pocahontas are oil and water. They don't naturally get along together at all. This changes when John alters his attitudes, but I feel like he alters them only because Pocahontas is beautiful and he's trying to woo her. This seems like a very shallow reason to alter one's beliefs. To me, John Smith seems like a cheesy womanizer, even if he perhaps never chased after anyone other than Pocahontas. 9. Snow White's Prince
Snow White's Prince is unremarkable. 8. Prince Charming
Normally I don't care about appearances but Prince Charming is an exception. He has LEGO man hair. I find his appearance to be so plastic and vanilla as to be a distraction, especially since it meshes with his lackluster personality and lack of things to do in the plot. On the other hand, I find his yawning attitude toward all these women pursuing him to be hilarious. For my overall judgement on Prince Charming, the positive outweighs the negative. 7. Shang
Shang's a solid character, and a solid man, but his character and story are kind of boring. We first see him as a fully formed adult, albeit one who has something to prove. There's the potential for a character growth story, but the story goes in a different direction (concentrating on Mulan and Mushu instead). As it is, his character is unchanged by what should be life changing events. And the potential storyline promised by his need to prove himself fizzles out--ultimately he never has to prove anything to anyone. 6. Phillip
Like Shang, Phillip starts off with the potential to have some interesting character development, but this potential is wasted. He could have had an interesting conflict involving his arranged marriage with Princess Aurora vs his love for the peasant girl Briar Rose. He could have had an interesting conflict with his father. But no, these potential conflicts just neatly resolve themselves on their own. Still, Phillip is more fleshed out than Prince Charming, and the plot gives him plenty of exciting action and fun humor. Phillip is also more explicitly rebellious and independent than either Prince Charming or Shang. Really, for me it's hard to rank Shang and Phillip. Shang's character is a bit more realistic, but compared to Phillip he's humorless. I put Phillip higher because he has an exceptional quality--Phillip is exceptionally daring. Could you imagine any other prince doing what he did to Briar Rose? Phillip shows an exceptional level of bold self confidence. That may or may not be a good thing, but either way I think it's a little interesting. 5. Naveen
Of all of the princes, I find Naveen's character development to be the most thought provoking and full of complex subtleties. I'd rank him much higher if it weren't for the unfortunate fact that he's just so unlikable and difficult for me to relate to. He starts off as an all around disgusting jerk even worse than Gaston...and ends up not a whole lot better. Really, Naveen needed to have some sort of nugget of goodness already in him, like Beast did, for Tiana to fall for him when she did. There needed to be something for the audience to root for in him. As it is, his only redeeming quality is his self awareness of how pathetic he is. 4. Aladdin
Aladdin's an easy character to relate to. Everyone in his world thinks he's a worthless nothing, but he feels like there's so much more to him inside. This is a very common attitude for boys; I was no exception. Aladdin's story is interesting, as he has various internal and external conflicts to juggle. Fundamentally, he struggles with questions of self worth and friendship and being true to oneself. Unfortunately, the matter of truthfulness isn't entirely satisfactorily resolved. The problem is that Aladdin's greatest talent is his ability to lie. His abilities as a trickster save Jasmine in the marketplace and defeat Jafar in the end. Worse still, one of his lies on Jasmine actually works, at a critical time (the lie that he's actually a prince who pretended to be a commoner). As a result, there is no consistent lesson on what is ultimately the biggest issue of Aladdin's character. I would have liked it if every lie he told Jasmine ultimately got him in trouble. If that were the case, then you could say the lesson is that you should be truthful to good people, but it's sometimes okay to deceive bad people. Still, Aladdin has an essentially good heart, and this moral ambiguity is at least something interesting to think about. Really, the only reason I don't rank Aladdin higher is because the remaining princes are even jucier. 3. Eugene
Eugene is superficially similar to Aladdin, but there are some critical differences. Most importantly, Eugene isn't a really a trickster, so his story avoids the moral pitfalls of Aladdin's. Also, Eugene is a loner. He doesn't have a sidekick or a magic carpet or a genie to hand him his fake identity and fake reputation. He does it all alone. I think this makes Eugene a more realistic and more relatable character than Aladdin. The biggest difference, though, is that Eugene's relationship with Rapunzel isn't built on a mess of lies. There is a clear dividing line between "Flynn" and Eugene, and that dividing line is the flooded cave. In the flooded cave, Eugene reveals his true self and he never turns back. Flynn was sarcastic and pretended to be too cool for "blondie". Flynn didn't even dare utter Rapunzel's name (I'd speculate he avoided saying "Rapunzel" in fear that he might reveal his true feelings). In contrast to "Flynn", Eugene was earnest and honest. Eugene was polite also, always calling Rapunzel by her full and proper name. Eugene is almost a different character than Flynn! Eugene's also better than Flynn in almost every way. The only downside to Eugene is that he's slightly less humorous than Flynn. That's a small price to pay, though, since "Flynn" used sarcastic humor as a shield to hide his heart behind. Eugene's story isn't as complex and layered as Aladdin's, but I'm a sucker for romances. I actually like how Eugene has fewer internal conflicts and that those conflicts are more focused upon his romance with Rapunzel. Really, my only annoyance is that Eugene has a bad line of dialog. I really don't like the line, "Did I ever tell you I have a thing for brunettes?" I'm getting annoyed just thinking about that line. That line really needed to be a good line, and it was not! I do get that the filmmakers must have decided there needed to be something lighthearted to break the serious mood. But even so, I could think of a dozen lines which would have been better! How about "I'm in heaven" or "Am I dreaming?" Or, what's wrong with simply leaving it at "Rapunzel"? Ugh! Just thinking about that one line almost makes me want to demote Eugene below Aladdin. 2. Eric
Eric is mostly in the mold of the more boring princes, but his character is made interesting by a deep internal struggle and character growth. Interestingly, Ariel is almost completely oblivious to his internal struggle and his ultimate resolution. Eric is wracked to the core by his inability to stay true to his own romantic idealism. He states his ideals that he'll know "the one" because it'll hit him like lightning. And it's true--it does. Unfortunately for him, it hits him twice. He doesn't know Ariel and "the one" are the same girl, and it tears him up inside. I actually personally relate to this, although in reverse. When I met my wife, I was like Ariel and she was like Eric. She had a lot of conflicted feelings, but I was pretty oblivious to them. Things could have been a lot easier for her if I had been less overwhelmed by my own feelings and more aware of hers. Aside from Eric's interesting core struggle, he also has some exceptional qualities. In particular, he's very brave. Eric's pursuit of Ursula and Ariel undersea, alone and with nothing more than a harpoon, was exceptionally dangerous--far beyond anything any of the other princes faced. 1. Beast
Beast is my favorite prince for many reasons. He's easily the one I relate to most, having suffered much the same despair and depression. Like Beast, I was cured by the love of a beauty. Like Beast, I was an unloveable monster until somehow she saw and loved something in me I didn't even know was there. Besides my personal empathy for Beast, I find his character development and dialog wonderful and beautifully done. He starts off as a monster both on the outside and the inside. He learns to change, bit by bit, in ways that are plausible and earnest. Beast is far too damaged and hopelessly depressed to pick himself up--he needs the help of his friends. This aspect elevates Beast's transformation to a spiritual level above those of Naveen and John Smith. Those others change themselves for somewhat selfish reasons, but Beast's transformation is a case of friends helping a friend in desperate need. Beast is also the central star of what I consider the film's climax--when Beast lets Belle go. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is, for me, the most moving and romantic and emotionally satisfying scene of any film. It is great because Beast makes such a sacrifice for love, right in front of her, without her even realizing it. It is great because this sort of secret sacrifice is almost always cheesy and misguided, and almost always handled poorly...but in Beauty and the Beast it is handled perfectly. Beast isn't misguided, he really is doing the right thing. And the dialog! Such dialog! Beast is no poet--he wouldn't say something clever or flowery, and he doesn't. He just says simple statements in simple straightforward ways. And yet the dialog is so exquisitely crafted that these simple straightforward statements take on a potent elegance of their own. |
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The drawings that intimidated me the most were Beast and Naveen, but they turned out to be a lot easier than I expected. I was extremely pleasantly surprised by how exquisitely beautiful Eric's drawing turned out.
Unlike my Princess drawings, these are all based on actual scenes, with no original poses. I did them while looking at paused video for reference.
I don't know how many hours in total I spent drawing, but it was all done yesterday. It took a lot longer for me to draw the Princesses for my earlier article--those pencil drawings were done over the course of a week. And the quality of the Princess drawings was a lot lower.
What really took me a long time was building up my skill up to the point where I felt comfortable even trying. That took months of obsessively drawing every day.
I actually finished writing the text of this article a while ago, but I didn't feel ready to draw the princes until yesterday. It's hard to draw attractive guys with that certain "princely" handsomeness...and in my case it's compounded by lack of experience. I mainly draw female characters.
Knowing my limitations, I had been writing The Golden Goose without a traditionally handsome "prince". But even so, the King would be more imposing and intimidating if he were handsome. The day before yesterday, I redid the King's character design and figured out how to pull off "Disney Prince" handsome. That's when I knew I was finally ready to illustrate this article.
I agree about John Smith, sometimes his lines are so cheesy! Haha, I love him though. Awesome article!
I started writing a movie ranking a few weeks ago, but...I don't know. I didn't really feel it. Maybe I'll feel more inspired by a couples ranking. After all, I'm a sucker for romances, and I like writing about them.
I'm really touched, because I actually didn't expect more than one or two of you to even notice or care.
Absolutely agreed with your descriptions of John Smith. Personally, I always found him a very shallow, one dementional and cheesy character who's character growth was written sloppily and unconvincingly and his entire change of personality (from a guy who comes to other people's land in order to posess it and force his rules on them and who is willing to KILL any of those people if they refuse to give away their land and "gold" that as he and Ratcliffe believed they had - to a man who talks to trees and makes it seem, though very unconvincingly, that he suddenly appreciates nature and spirits) happened in few hours while a hot girl was singing a song about Colors of the Wind to him, which is definitely not what I call an organic character development at all.
Sadly, I have to say the same about Naveen and I know it's an unpopular opinion but I absolutely didn't buy into his growth, at all. He started out as an obnoxious jerk who's goal was to marry for money and to use a rich girl in order to keep living a life of a spoiled narcissistic kid who needs other, poor people to lick his shoes and he wasn't ashamed to admit it. In addition to that he repeatedly insulted and humiliates less privileged people like he did with Tiana on more than one occasion mocking her working class status and with his friend/helper calling him "fat". Then suddenly Tiana calls him out on his attitude and teaches him to cook a soup and we are supposed to buy into his transformation, which really happens, but happens out of a blue. I just didn't see the transition.
I agree with the fact that Aladdin, Eric and Eugene/Flynn are so high on your list, but I must say I see some things about them a little differently. I never thought that Flynn and Eugene were two completely different characters, not at all. Flynn was just a less opened and genuin version of Eugene, he used that name and that attitude to hide his pain and insecurities just like he used thieving to deal with his complecated life situation, but it was also made clear that Flynn was his childhood hero he admired and wanted to measure up to and there were things about this character he related to and liked and those things influented on his own character greatly as he grew up. However, as he found a person who wouldn't judge him, Rapunzel, he was able to fully open up to her without trying to seem cool and dashing. It doesn't mean he was NOT cool or dashing, it just means that there was so much more to him than that. And I personally think that if he had said something like "Am I in heaven" it would have been much cheesier than the line about brunettes. I think it was a lovely way for him to tell Rapunzel that he loves her not for her hair in contradiction to Gothel's "love", the only kind of love she had in life that was directly linked to her long blonde magical hair.
Cannot agree with your critique of Shang, because I felt like he got to deal with plenty of conflcts throughout the movie and he developed greatly. He started his journey as a well disciplined and responsible but rather confused young man who had to take too many responsibilities on his shoulders. Like, for instance, training a team of completely useless - as they seemed at first sight - guys. He also has to constantly prove something to that guy in blue coat who is picking on every fail of his and even writes it down in his stupid notebook. When Shang finally manages to succeed in something and makes the guys from the army look like some sort of an acceptable excuse of warriors - his father dies. And he has to lead his army alone and defending the whole country is up to him now, him and his skills of a capitan. Despite the fact that this young man is obligated to lead his people to the war and fight to death, he realizes that they don't have much of a chance. He accepts the seeming invetibility of his death, but what's even more hard, he has to accept the fact that he leads all of his people to an invetible death as well. And then with the help of his best warrior and friend, Ping, they get a chance to survive and to win. Ping saves his life and thanks to "his" brave actions saves the entire army from defeat.Ping was the only person Shang relied on - and "he" tuned out to be lying to Shang all the time, because "he" was she. Shang had to deal with the loss of his father and then he had to also deal with the loss of his friend. Of course he eventually found love with Mulan, but he needed time to come to terms with the "loss" of Ping and learn to trust Mulan again.
Anyway, great article and great pictures!
WRT John Smith--I have to say that I find his change of heart believable, but that's because I know guys who would bend over backwards for a pretty girl. To a certain extent, changing oneself for the better for love is laudable. I know a lot of guys who wouldn't change a thing about themselves, and I don't respect that. However, I think the basis of John Smith's attraction to Pocahontas is too shallow for me to respect.
WRT Naveen--Well, it's true that Naveen's transforms for Tiana in much the same way John Smith transforms for Pocahontas. I find it more respectable, though, since the basis of his attraction to Tiana is more respectable. Tiana is simply a very admirable person, and it's good that Naveen looks up to her as an example he could try and learn from.
WRT Flynn/Eugene--They aren't really two different characters, of course. I'm just saying that they're almost like two different characters. The flooded cave is really like a rebirth. Eugene's attitude and manners shift at that point. It's really a clear dividing line. Before the cave, Flynn never utters "Rapunzel", and he always utters blondie/goldie in a (falsely) sarcastic disparaging way. After the cave, Eugene only calls her "Rapunzel", and always utters "Rapunzel" in a loving tone. It's not that "Flynn" was a different person, it's just that "Flynn" was a role Eugene hid his true self behind.
WRT the "brunette" line--I don't see it. The line literally says that he likes her hair. I guess it fits in with the way he used to disparagingly say "blondie/goldie", but that was figuratively a lifetime ago.
As for "Am I in heaven"--I actually agree that "Am I in heaven" is a bad line. I don't think it works, compared to "I'm in heaven" or "Am I dreaming?" A small change in wording has a big effect, here.
WRT Shang--Obviously, a lot of major things happen to Shang. But none of them change his character. He's a fully formed adult inside. He reacts to these events accordingly, but none of them really change him inside.
The one partial exception is when he initially makes the mistake of not listening to Mulan. He does make a mistake, and he changes his mind before it's too late--but this isn't a change of heart and it's not a change of character. In fact, Shang's heart was already in the right place. It's just that he had already gone so far by sparing Mulan's life. He wasn't quite ready to go further, yet.
To be clear, I don't think it's always necessary for an interesting character to have character growth and change. I'm just disappointed in the lack of character growth in Shang's case, because there was so much story opportunity for it.
Anyway, thanks again for the thought and time you put into expressing your thoughts!
Naveen is so cute, I almost laughed because he is so cute <3
I love him.
Beast is amazing.
For the article:
I can't write down my own opinion as I am bored but I disagree with your Smith ranking.
I cannot agree that Tiana is more of a role model to look up to than Pocahontas, imo, Tiana's business goals always got in a way of her being loyal or likeable, which resulted in her facing the consequences by turning into a frog once she smooched Naveen who promised her loads of money. Her best friend Charlotte was at that point downstairs with a guy who, according to that talking frog, was not the real prince Naveen and even if Tiana didn't believe the talking frog - although she DID believe him which was rather stupid considering that they had just met - she still should have warned her best friend telling her to stay away from that man because something weird was going on. But no, she didn't. Instead she ended up marring a guy who originally wanted to marry her best friend for money and those are just a few of all the disturbing aspects of Tiana/Naveen relationship that I just couldn't quite relate to.
I never thought that the cave scene was anything like a rebirth nor do I think Eugene ever forgot about who he was or lost himself. In fact, he was too much aware of his own flaws and insecurities and it made him even more vulnerable, to the point where he needed that Flynn Rider's mask to hide behind, but he only did it because he felt misjudged and didn't find a person who would accept him for who he was. Untill he met Rapunzel for whom he developed romantic feelings eventually and of course once it happened he started treating her differently to the way he treated her when she was just a girl who took his precious satchel. Also I honestly don't view the brunette line this way, I think it was a nice way to show Rapunzel that he would like her with any hair and that is wasn't about her hair color or anything like that, it was about HER.
I agree that a good character doesn't necessarily need changes and in fact, a character can be multi-layered, appealing and likeable even without going through any transformations and while Shang didn't have much of it, I cannot agree that his struggles were not significant. I think he had to - and at times was even forced to - grow too fast throughout the movie, facing situations that not every guy of his years would be able to handle, having to take newfound responsibilities on his shoulders, adding more and more to them each day, quite often it having to do with shocking or tragic twists of events such as his father's death. Him sparing Mulan's life was also a big deal because not only he broke the law but he also stepped over his anger he could have given in because of "Ping's" betrayal.
But I don't think he would buy into it because of how Pocahontas said things. No, I think John Smith is like a politician. A politician is someone who can earnestly believe his own words. So, John Smith could buy into it because of how he says them. In politics, they say "It's not a lie if you believe it."
WRT Pocahontas vs Tiana - I never said Tiana was more of a role model than Pocahontas. I said that Naveen's attraction to Tiana was more respectable than John Smith's attraction to Pocahontas. John Smith wasn't attracted to Pocahontas because she was an admirable person. He was attracted to her because she was pretty. He's fumbling around trying to spin his offensive beliefs around before he knows anything else about her. In contrast, Naveen was impressed by Tiana because of the qualities in her which he lacked so sorely.
WRT Tiana - I can't agree with your criticism of Tiana. Charlotte wasn't under any immediate threat. Even if Charlotte was prince-crazy, she wasn't going to get married within minutes. No, the most Charlotte would do that night would be dance with the fake prince. If what Naveen was saying were accurate, then Tiana could simply kiss him to reveal the true prince, and then they could go downstairs to reveal the fake prince. Plus, Charlotte would get to meet the real prince! That would have been a perfect plan, except Naveen didn't realize that Tiana wasn't a princess and of course he didn't know Tiana would turn into a frog.
Also, it's not clear how much Tiana really believed of what Naveen said. Obviously, there's no denying that he was a talking frog, so that much was believable. What about the rest of his claims? Well, if she kissed him and he turned into the real Prince Naveen, that prove the truth. So, she didn't really have to just take him at his word. But she still needed to use her leverage before kissing him, because that's when she had it.
WRT the cave scene - I only came to realize the full significance of the flooded cave after studying the movie repeatedly. It's not that Eugene becomes a different person, it's that he has revealed his true self to Rapunzel. By the way, he doesn't reveal himself because Rapunzel isn't judgemental. Eugene reveals himself because he's about to die. There's no escape. They're about to die, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. So what does he do? Well, he reveals his true self, just because someone might as well know. Eugene doesn't know that a miracle is about to save them from certain death. That miracle was, figuratively, a rebirth.
After they miraculously survive the flooded cave, Rapunzel reveals her secret to Eugene, and asks him about "Eugene Fitzherbert". Well, the cat's out of the bag. Eugene comes clean, and it's only after he explains the truth about himself that Rapunzel says she prefers Eugene Fitzherbert. Before that, he had no idea what Rapunzel would think. He didn't open up to her because Rapunzel was nice. He opened up to her because they were about to die.
As for the brunette line - he's literally saying he likes brown hair. It's not like he said, "Rapunzel, you're beautiful". That could be interpreted two ways, since "beautiful" can refer to inner beauty. It's about her hair.
WRT Shang - Of course his struggles were significant. They just didn't change his character.
But seriously, I am actually curious. Obviously, I don't see it myself. So I wonder what I'm missing.
And thank you very much for your impressions of my drawings of Naveen and Beast! Like I said earlier, they were the ones which intimidated me the most. Although they were easier than I feared.
I agree that the idea behind Naveen's admiration of Tiana is a bit more admirable, but the execution of it didn't work for me and imo did not look the way it was supposed to look. According to the idea, yes, Naveen was supposed to fall for Tiana because of how hardworking and determined she was but the way it ended up looking was him falling for her out of a blue because she made him cook a soup with her and after that he suddenly fell for her off the bat. We barely saw the transition between "I wanna marry for money" Naveen and "I will find a job and do anything to measure up to Tiana's awesomeness" Naveen.
As for Tiana, she believed Naveen when he told her he was a prince with loads of money and she was going to kiss him in order to get that money because her goal was to get her resturant and fulfill her father's dream. The whole situation of a talking frog saying he was a prince was suspecious and that's why it would have been more than logical for her to warn Charlotte about something wrong going on, especially after the "Frog" told her that the guy her friend was dancing with was not real prince Naveen. Who the hell knew what he could do to Charlotte. Yet Tiana chose to stay there with the talking frog and kiss him. She faced the consequences of this not very smart decision to kiss a frog, tuned into a frog herself and acted like a mature person trying to find a way out whereas Naveen was being pretty useless most of time. I didn't see the team work with them. That's one of many reasons why their romance did not really work for me.
In the flooded cave Flynn only revealed his real name, but he didn't yet reveal his true self to Rapunzel. He only did it during the campfire scene after SHE asked him, after SHE made it clear she was interested in him as a person,after SHE made him tell her his "sob story", the one he didn't really feel like telling. After she made it clear she wasn't going to judge him.
I didn't view that line as him liking the hair, I viewed it as him finding HER beautiful and he just made this witty remark in order to complement herm especially after it was him who cut her hair.
I think Shang's struggles made his character grow, which is much more significant than changes, but that is just my subjective opinion.
And I would love for people to share their opinions on John Smith. I obviously don't see him the way the majority does but I'm wondering about what other people who love his character think and I would love to know their side of things.
About Snow White's prince, why is his description so short?
And I'm John Smith's fan. I can see many good things in him. I'm sure many men get attracted to beautiful girls, so I'd say it's natural of John to be attracted to Pocahontas' beauty. Aladdin is also attracted to Jasmine's beauty. Eric also stares at Ariel during their first dinner together. I'm sure it's because Ariel's beautiful.
John Smith must have been a responsible, clever, hardworking sailor. He can be a captain at quite a young age! I find him to be a balanced person, who can be serious and also relaxed. (Not like Shang, who's over-serious, or Flynn, who mostly fights with Maximus in a ridiculous way. Flynn even has time to say about the pan, "Oh, mama, I need to get one of these," when he fights with the guards in the mine.)
That's my good opinion about John Smith.
I'm a little embarrassed to say it, but I didn't spend nearly as much time drawing these pictures as some of you seem to think. I spent more time searching through the movies to find just the right shot than I did actually sketching them. When it comes to the actual sketches, my style is fast and loose. You may notice I rarely go through the time consuming process of shading. I like to just get the outlines out, and I find that going over them to darken them loses more than it gains. An exception was Naveen, since I needed to have some lighter lines. I darkened the other lines to provide the necessary contrast.
That said, it really did take me months of practice before I could sketch quickly and accurately enough. Actually, my sketches still aren't accurate at all. If you looked at my sketches side by side with the screenshots they're based on, the lines and proportions hardly match at all. But I'm getting better. A few weeks ago, I would have needed to use a pencil and I would need to erase a lot of bad mistakes just to get something that wasn't completely ugly.
I'm not proud of my John Smith sketch. I like how I managed to do the lips--just the right amount of fullness without looking feminine--but the jawline is too bulky. He looks like a weird hybrid of John Smith and Brock Samson.
But enough about drawing...
Thanks for your perspective on John Smith! I guess I'm not exactly missing anything in particular, I just happen to find the whole package spoiled by what I personally consider a bad character flaw.
To clarify, I don't think it's bad that John Smith is attracted to Pocahontas's beauty. I think it's bad that this seems to be the only thing, and he changes his beliefs for it.
Aladdin's initially notices Jasmine because of her beauty, but they immediately hit it off when they actually meet. Jasmine and Aladdin have instant natural chemistry; she effortlessly joins in Aladdin's trickster act. They also have the same basic nature--Jasmine gives food to a hungry street urchin, which is something Aladdin does also. Really, it's only after Aladdin finds out she's the princess that he starts spoiling things by trying too hard and pretending to be something he isn't. By the time Aladdin's trying to change who he is for Jasmine, his attraction is based on more than just her appearance.
Eric and Ariel also have an instant natural chemistry. She appeals to his naturally caring and casual nature. She makes him laugh, and they simply have fun together. Now, it's true that Eric changes a core belief for Ariel. But here's the big difference--Eric doesn't try to change for Ariel! He resists it as hard as he can! It turns out that resisting as hard as he can still isn't anywhere close to enough, but it's not Eric's fault that his perfect girl is so irresistable.
WRT Naveen's character transition - I have to rewatch The Princess and the Frog again to consider how much of a transition there was. It never bothered me before, but I can't point out specifics without reviewing again. My impression was that he more or less immediately realized how superior Tiana was to him, so it was really just a matter of him coming to think he had a chance with her.
WRT Tiana and Charlotte - I just don't agree that Tiana did anything wrong. A talking frog is a strange situation, of course, but would it really be smart to run to Charlotte in a panic? Even without having any idea what's going on? I think it would be smarter to try and figure out what's going on, first. This talking frog is making an incredible claim to be the real Prince Naveen, and that kissing him would change him back. Well, there's one way to find out whether that's true.
WRT Eugene - I don't know what sort of signs you're thinking that Rapunzel gave to Eugene before asking him, "So, Eugene Fitzherbert, huh?" Before that, the conversation is only about herself and her magical hair. In fact, neither of them say anything at all about Flynn/Eugene between "My real name is Eugene Fitzherbert. Someone might as well know." and "So, Eugene Fitzherbert, huh?" Between those two lines, all of their dialog is about Rapunzel's magic hair.
And Rapunzel doesn't make Eugene tell her anything. She just asks, "So, Eugene Fitzherbert, huh?" She's not exactly twisting his arm.
Not long before the flooded cave, Rapunzel asks more forcefully. That time, "Flynn" just shot her down with, "Sorry, blondie. I don't do backstory." Not long after the flooded cave, though, he opens up to her with barely any prompting.
What changed? One little thing. Everything. It's open to some interpretation. Obviously, it's significant that Rapunzel knows his real name. Maybe that's all. Maybe "Eugene Fitzherbert" is the keystone without which the entire Flynn Rider facade crumbles.
Or maybe there's also more. Maybe the near death experience makes Eugene realize he has fallen in love with Rapunzel, and he wants to tell her the truth. Or maybe learning Rapunzel's secret makes him feel protective of her, and that makes him realize he has fallen in love with her. Or maybe Eugene just feels like explaining his secret to Rapunzel after she has explained her secret to him (bearing in mind that he told her his secret before she told him hers). Maybe it's a lot of things. Or maybe it's just one little thing.
But in all of the possibilities I see, I just don't see it being about whether or not Rapunzel is judgemental or how interested Rapunzel is in Flynn/Eugene. Rapunzel seemed just as interested in him before the flooded cave, and everything since then was only about Rapunzel and her magic hair. How could she indicate she's interested in Eugene "as a person" if the only things they have been talking about are herself and her hair?
"I didn't view that line as him liking the hair, I viewed it as him finding HER beautiful and he just made this witty remark in order to complement herm especially after it was him who cut her hair."
I would have liked the line, "You're beautiful." That would have been a nice line with a double meaning, since "beautiful" could refer to inner beauty.
As for Naveen, the thing is that I didn't see him immediatelly seeing Tiana's superiority. No, he started out as someone who looked at her from the high horse because this was the way he always looked at less privileged people and he mocked her working class status repeatedly. It wasn't before she made him cook a soup with her and he suddenly felt like he was needed and important, something that he didn't feel i na long while accepting his role of a useless womanizer, that he started worshipping Tiana and developing feelings for her. He didn't really change his attitude towards less privileged people or anything, he just made a sudden and inorganic transition from a spoiled rich boy into a poor rich boy. Or that is how it seemed to me.
Rapunzel showed clear signs of being a non-judgemental person to Flynn throughout the whole movie. Her saying "Eugene Fitzherbert, huh?" was a sign of her WANTING to know him, the real him, what he was about and who he ws behind the Flynn Rider's fasade and it made him warm up to her even more because before no one really cared about getting to know him or even listening to him. Yet she was about to listen. She was about to listen even in the tunnel, but back then he didn't want to open up to her because he still didn't put his guard down, however, once they go through the guards & Maximus and Stabbingtons incident before the drawning and once Rapunzel doesn't leave him in trouble although she could have because she seemed to be able to take care of herself well enough already to not need him anymore, he realized that there was something about this girl that was different from other people he communicated with previously. Then in the cave he shows other signs of being protective over her when he pulls her out of the water. When they think they are about to die they share their secrets with each other, but he doesn't say more than his real name and she doesn't say more than that her hair glows, she doesn't even mention the healing powers of it, which is technically her main secret. It's not what defines their fears and insecurities, this they are going to reveal later. Once they manage to get out of the cave Rapunzel gives away more information about her hair ("It doesn't JUST glow"). Then she heals his hand and opens up to him about her story and about staying in the tower for her entire life because her mother told her people might use her for her hair. And he is impressed by the fact that not only she revealed her biggest secret and her hair healing powers to him though she didn't have to, but that she revealed it all TO HIM, knowing that he is a thief and having no garantees that he wouldn't use that knowledge for his selfish purposes. He saw that she trusted him and that she didn't really see him as a thief Flynn Rider, but as a person whom she slowly started getting to know and wanted to get to know and a person who's flaws didn't scare her off. And THIS is imo what helped him to open up to her. This, not the flooded cave incident. However, this is just my subjective view, Tangled was amazing enough to have so many layers and different people see the story and the relationship between two main characters differently which is great.
When Naveen finally opens up, he reveals that he had his epiphany about his uselessness back when he was cut off. Therefore, it wasn't something that he suddenly realized in the middle of the movie. Rather, he had already had these feelings of inferiority--he was just hiding them. This doesn't excuse his disgraceful treatment of his servant and friend (well, closest thing to a friend that he has).
I don't see what the big deal is of Rapunzel not leaving Flynn behind at the dam scene. Regardless of whether she ever needed or wanted him as a guard, the main reason she needed Flynn was because she needed him as a guide. That didn't change.
Still...there is one thing she does at the dam scene. She hands him her frying pan. On the one hand, this could just be a convenience so the filmmakers can have the action scene they wanted. On the other hand, it could be a more significant sign of her trust in him. If you pay close attention, the animators carefully use the frying pan to symbolically show Rapunzel shielding herself from Flynn. Until the Snuggly Duckling, Rapunzel sees Flynn as someone she has to be careful of. She has mixed feelings about Flynn--she instinctively hides behind him as a protector, but she also sees him as someone she has to defend herself from. I love the shot where they're walking to the Snuggly Duckling. Rapunzel is constantly gazing and smiling at Flynn with rapt interest, but she's also shielding her heart with her frying pan.
After the flooded cave, Rapunzel's frying pan disappears. The shield serves no purpose. She opens her heart to Eugene. She puts her trust in him.
I would agree that Eugene is moved by the trust Rapunzel shows in him, but I don't see her doing anything to make Eugene tell her his backstory, and I don't think Eugene was motivated by Rapunzel's interest. The difference between before and after the flooded cave wasn't Rapunzel's interest. The differences were that he revealed his secret (even if he didn't explain it), and that Rapunzel reveals and then explains her secret.
My problem with Naveen and Tiana is that I see them as self centered people who always put their goals above morals. Naveen repeatedly stated to Tiana that he was going to marry her friend because of her money and because he wanted to use her in orde to keep living a life of a self centered, spoiled narcissistic jerk. And what does Tiana say to it? Does she perhaps try to defend her friend saying that she tells her everything he told her now and would do anything to prevent her marring a guy who just want to use her for her money? Nope, instead she says that Charlotte is going to marry him since he is a prince, showing how she looks at her friend from a high horse and views Charlotte as some dumb blonde who only knows how to dream. And Neveen indeed had a poor rich boy complex in him from the start, but we, as the audience, were only introduced to it in the beginning of the movie and I don't consider us suddenly knowing that he has an inferiority issues an organic character development.
I'm not saying that Rapunzel did not need Flynn as her guide, I'm saying that FOR HIM it must have been a pretty big deal that she didn't just leave him there althohg she could have and she could have gone on her own, at least that is something he could assume. He never really had people he could trust, but from that scene he started trusting her. As for frying pan, she gave it to him as a weapon to defend himself because she had a more effective weapon - her hair and in that situation hair was something that would be more useful. Rapunzel was brainwashed by Gothel into believing that anyone she meets is dangerous and she used her frying pan as a protection - from Flynn and later from thugs. She even tried to defend Flynn with her pan when the thugs grabbed him. Eventually she just grew to be more confident about herself and she didn't NEED that pan anymore.
Although, in the flooded cave a pan actually did not disappear and Rapunzel took it again in her own hands to try to break through the cave walls while Flynn was trying to find the way out. She didn't use her pan because she was shielding herself from Flynn. She used it because it was the only thing she could find to protect herself and she used it when she felt like it could be useful. It had nothing to do with Flynn.
Obviously, Rapunzel did not demend him to tell about himself, and that is actually what he appreciated too: she was willing and wanted to get to know him but she didn't pressure. I see him opening up ti her because of the way she behaved herself with him, not because they happened to be trapped in the cave full of water previously and he told her his real name believing they were dying and then freaked out seeing her magic hair.
However, that is just my personal take on it. Thanks for sharing yours, I loved reading your thoughts.
Unfortunately, Tiana's view of Charlotte is accurate. I don't think she looks down on Lottie, though. I think she just accepts her for what she is and trusts Lottie knows better than her what will make herself happy.
I still don't think Eugene would be moved by Rapunzel sticking with him. She repeatedly explains that she needs him as a guide, so that's a perfectly self-interested explanation for her actions. However, he could be impressed by how well they worked together at the dam. He could be thinking they'd make a really good team. Hmm...actually Rapunzel could have been a really good thief.
I said the frying pan disappears after the flooded cave. I think she left it behind in the cave, but it's not really important whether or not she lost it. The important thing is that her frying pan disappears from the story. She never has any use for it. Well, actually she might have had a use for it when the Stabbington brothers come for her.
That's just my opinion also, of course. Thank you for sharing yours, also. I love reading them, and learn a lot from these discussions.
I can rewatch a movie many times and overlook things because I'm watching from the same perspective each time. But when I'm pondering some issue or premise I hadn't really considered before, the shift in perspective lets me see things I hadn't seen before.
Flynn/Eugene could never possibly think about Rapunzel being a good thief or making his company or being in his team, he never wanted that kind of life for her and even in the beginning he viewed her as a daughter of an extremely overprotective mother and a naive girl with bestest of intentions which was a complete opposite to him, an orphan who pretty much had his life in his own hands since childhood and chose a wrong way of dealing with that life when starting thieving. And after he developed feelings for her, he would never want her to do that with her life too. In the kindom when she forgot to pay for the fruits she took from a seller on the market he instantly throwed them back to a seller because he didn't want her to get in trouble and then he, a thief who got used to stealing everything including food, actually standed in line to buy them food. He never stole anything when they were together, he did not want to steal when being with her and he knew what kind of danger it could have put her in and he would never want that kind of life for her. He did not fall in love with her because she could have been a good team for him, he never wanted her to take part in wrong things he did, things he eventually decided to stop doing too because he found a new dream and new purpose, he fell in love with her because of her personality and because for the first time in his life someone actually cared to listen to him. At least that it how I see it, but it's totally fine if you see it differently.
Eugene isn't like Aladdin who only steals when it's necessary to eat. He's stealing to get rich (and also for fame, but mostly to get rich). In the trailers, Flynn is described as the best thief in the kingdom, and what we see in the movie is entirely consistent with that. The best thief in the kingdom wouldn't be barely scraping by from day to day sustaining himself with stolen bread. No, he'd have plenty of pocket change with which to buy things like a normal person most of the time.
Eugene was never intending on being a thief for life. His plan was always to get rich and then retire, living off his wealth for the rest of his life.
I never said he was like Aladdin, because stealing for Flynn was his misguided way to achieve happiness or at least what he believed to be happiness at that point, he was inspired by his childhood hero Flynnigan Rider who was the "richest man alive" and in his desperate attempts to measure up to him he got off track and chose a wrong way of dealing with his life situation. But he never wanted Rapunzel to get off track with him, when he was with her he was determined to keep her safe and to not let her get herself in trouble. He would never want her to live a dangerous life style as he did and nothing in the movie implied that he ever wanted her as his companion or partner in crime, in fact, it was a complete opposite of that, he never wanted it for her and eventually he stopped wanting it for himself. Imo obviously.
Still, it's interesting that Flynn's last job involved the Stabbingtons lowering him about 70 feet with a rope. Rapunzel could do that job even better than they did. She lowers herself that distance in seconds. In the promo trailers, she lowers Flynn even faster (and reels him back up). Rapunzel actually does support Eugene's weight without the benefit of the hook or wrapping around a rock when Eugene climbs up the tower the last time.
My point comparing Eugene with Aladdin was simply to point out that he doesn't steal every day, and he's not a petty thief. He wouldn't generally steal food, he steals valuables. He pays for food, like normal people. It's not remarkable that he doesn't steal on day two.
(Although I think he does steal some apples. Not because he needs to, but because it's too funny to pull one over on Max, right under his nose.)
Wherever they go, the crown is the way Eugene intends to financially support them. He doesn't need to steal anything else, since they can live filthy rich from that alone. It doesn't matter whether Rapunzel is holding the satchel. As far as he's concerned, those riches are theirs, not his alone.
Eugene only gives up on the crown when he sees the Stabbingtons. The Stabbingtons aren't any ordinary threat. They are a mortal threat to Rapunzel. The last time, she almost died. It was miraculous for them to escape. Eugene calculates that the safest way to get rid of them is to give them everything they want--the crown. He's not really thinking about what to do in the future, he's just trying to figure out how to get them through the night.
Yes, his priorities had changed. He had a new dream. That didn't mean he had to throw away money which he could use to support Rapunzel. There is no point in the story which suggests Eugene would throw away money for no reason.
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