_CatWoman_ Well, I always thought Frozen was a flawed movie. I don't really consider myself a feminist as I am an equalist more or less. Point is: This smart and nice young lady has already pointed out something I already knew. To be honest, I like the essay, I'm sure it'll get mixed opinions, but I don't find anything wrong with it, all the same nothing ground breaking either.

princesslullaby ^do you know what feminism is? You know feminism is about believing in equality for all genders. This essay just points out how women are not represented well in this movie.

MaidofOrleans Absolutely amazing! I loved how you presented your points. That 100% was well deserved. Also I had no idea you were one of the mods for Walt Disney Confessions! I love your blog and I've been following it since before I joined tumblr! :)

princesslullaby ^yeah haha actually i'm the original mod, I made the blog:)

_CatWoman_ It appears I don't know what feminism is. Feminism to me, is more of demand for equality and upbringing women to that standard. Focusing more on the women's problems and not so much equal supportive treatment of both genders. As such you didn't bring up the parts in which Frozen does in fact demean the men to lesser "ranks" of society. I can only say that it was a great job on that particular subject, but it fails to mention anything other than that. Frozen is flawed, with the exact flaws you stated, meaning failing at feminism. Women aren't well represent in this film, but yet perhaps Disney did try and fail at something they genuinely thought was a flawless system, they probably didn't read into it so far as "This song means she's free." I think you've discovered something that was never implied in the first place. If you ask me it's just a hole in Frozen, not really a false representation. I really like the article, but perhaps I cannot understand what the message is, exactly. I doubt Disney noticed that while Elsa is free she is still concealing herself from society and Disney does consist of normal people that aren't going to read much into what is considered a children's film. They probably didn't notice to begin with and that's why I think it's pointless to nitpick otherwise. Very nice article, I liked it, it's just not really something I find interesting. I've your other works, though.

princesslullaby But men and women are not equal in today's society so feminism is both about there being equality among genders and upbringing women to that standard. I'm not sure where you see men being of lesser ranks in this film.

MaidofOrleans AudreyFreak "But we are already equal" I don't normally argue with people, but I'll argue with this. Here are just a few reasons why women still aren't equal in today's society: The salary gap. Women are paid on average only 71% of what men are paid. (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/upshot/the-pay-gap-is-because-of-gender-not-jobs.html) Domestic violence. 85% of domestic abuse victims are women. (http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf) And I have a more personal story to support my argument as well. My best friend goes to a different college than me, and she has a close knit group of friends. One of her female friends was sexually assaulted by one of her male friends. (In case you're wondering they are no longer friends and he has been thrown out from their friend group.) How did the girl who was sexually assaulted react? She didn't want to report him because it had happened to her before and she didn't see it as a big deal. SHE HAS ACCEPTED THE FACT THAT SEXUAL ASSAULT OF WOMEN IS A NORMAL PART OF TODAY'S SOCIETY. Just think about what this implies about our civilization today. It absolutely sickens me. Are we equal? NO. We are not. I'd also like to suggest that you take a look at the book "Half the Sky" by Nicholas Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn. It is an incredibly powerful book about oppression of women throughout the world. In terms of your other point that "feminism doesn't want equality," I agree to an extent. Feminism originally began as women seeking equality, and technically that is what it's still defined as today. However I think a lot of women who describe themselves as feminists use it as a platform to trumpet their belief that women are better than men. This is not feminism. Women who do this are not feminists. Unfortunately there are a large number of them and this has given a bad name to feminism. True feminism is the desire for and promotion of gender equality. Sorry for the rant. I hope I did not offend you.

princesslullaby @AudreyFreak- you are very ignorant if you think women and men are equal. And if you hear someone who thinks women should be above men, they are not a feminist. Being a feminist literally means you want equality among genders. Also, what are you talking about with custody? That women usually get full custody? The truth is, when it comes to full custody, usually men don't ASK for it. However, when men DO ask for full custody, they are more likely to get it than women. And no, disney has not done a good job of creating a diverse line of women, but even if they did, the majority of film today has male leads. I could go on and on about the misrepresentaiton of women in film. Take Pixar for example- they made a whole bunch of male lead films, with a middle aged superhero, an old man, a toy, a rat, a robot, a car, and when they make , FINALLY, a female lead, what do they make? A princess who doesn't want to be a princess. One of the most unoriginal tropes there are.

_CatWoman_ At least they're trying, but you seem to declare that as not good enough. Meanwhile in Africa, Asia and South America there are women with REAL gender issues. When a company tries to please an audience it's never perfect enough. At least be grateful. Of course women are the main victims of domestic violence on average women are physically weaker than men. And usually the court always take sthe woman's side. The salary gap is because of the risk for maternity leave, having a woman in an important position and then have her leave that spot, because of maternity leave. I don't think it's necessarily right for them to do that, but there is a reason. Not to mention those laws are being passed by congress as we speak. If you really want to be a PRODUCTIVE feminist then do something with politics, protest take cases to court look out for your fellow gal, not this nitpicking over companies trying to give you what you asked for in the first place. And yes, men aren't portrayed well in this movie either. All the male lead have flaws that portrays men as "disgusting loners: Kristoff, Greedy murderers: Duke, or power-hungry sociopaths: Hans." No other heroic males that are actually useful. But then you'd argue that every movie already portrays men as heros. Exactly, these men aren't so why are you dragging the movie down further? This, comming from someone who despises Frozen for the exact reasons you've stated yourself. Men have something to complain about here, but yet I only see feminist complaining. What is Anti-feminist? To hold women to certain roles they MUST play. You are holding women to the role of always being comfortable with their sexuality, being independent, being strong and willing to fight. Merida does that, but you are extremely unsatified with her, some think the same for Jasmine and Ariel as well. Well, not all women are independent and while you may still want a character to represent those feminist who want a strong, independent character, it's never going to come, because one way or another EVERYBODY needs help, especially women who apparently need equal treatment help. What portrayal of women would you have liked to have seen in Frozen? Because either way you'll somehow find something that isn't quite to your liking and more than likely it'll be deemed anti-feminist or some complaint about how it wasn't absolutely perfect. There's a much bigger picture here. If you want a good feminist character, make one yourself you seem like a good enough writer. Less talk more do. Anyway my point is, yes there are male problems in the film as well, not just female problems. Anyway I Guess since I'm obviously not going to change your mind... Keep fighting until you're satisfied? Never did understand the point of the article. But you should also be grateful Disney and other companies are trying. Also feminism is bringing women up after what is considered years of having unfair treatment. Some take it to even the tiniest of things, like movies and girls themselves liking girly stuff. Eh. You've already touched on some of this in your article. I'm complaining about complaining. Anyway I'm just going to leave this "argument" alone.

MaidofOrleans _CatWoman_ I wasn't nitpicking the movie at all I was arguing with AudreyFreak's point about how women are supposedly already equal. Who are you to judge whether or not I'm a productive feminist? You have no idea what kind of political actions I've taken to further equality. Don't make accusations when you have no proof to back them up. On another note, I agree with what you're saying about Frozen. It's unfair to only look at how women are portrayed in the film. I also agree that Disney is making at least some effort to make everyone happy, but the reality is that that's impossible. People like to nitpick, and there's no way to stop them from doing that.

princesslullaby But that was my subject, looking at how the WOMEN were portrayed. I'm not going to 'just be happy' with whatever Disney dishes out when I know they can do better. Also, that is totally untrue about maternity leave. Who said I'm unsatisfied with Merida??! I didn't say women ALWAYS have to be confident and kickbutt, but when the majority of women in films are pitted against each other, then I have an issue with that harmful trope continuing. Don't tell me to just make one myself. Media is highly impactful on how people view people and I will criticize how Disney portrays women.

princesslullaby Um so much of what you said is so factually incorrect (90% of rape cases get thrown away / don't get convicted) and the fact that you think it's a PRIVILEGE for women to win rape cases ( even though they dont) is astounding because they shouldn't be in that position in the first place. If someone is telling you they don't care about men then theyre not truly feminists But almost all men's issues are actually women's issues. And men being the biggest victims of abuse is VERY Untrue. Where do you get your facts from?? ?????

JungleQueen13 I haven't got time to read all this, but I just want to chip in about men and women being equal: I never really saw the issue until my country had its first female Prime Minister. Then it became obvious to me how unequally she was treated compared with her predecessors. There was a lot of disrespect stemming from the fact that she was a woman, from TV shows making fun of her relationship (she also happened to be unmarried to her partner), to pet shops selling toys that looked like her for dogs to play with (and these toys had exaggerated her features, such as a long nose and large buttocks). I have never seen anything like this before or since with the male PMs, regardless of the level of dislike the public has for them. And yes, this is in a developed and wealthy country. A football player is being investigated for rape of a teenage girl. His club and the football league fully support him, and allow him to continue playing, even though he has not yet been cleared/proven guilty. What sort of message does this send to society? These players are supposed to be role models! It's things like this that really highlight how much further we still have to go. (Sorry that was totally unrelated to Frozen but I will have to read the essay later! Just had to get that off my chest.)

princesslullaby Also, how man keep saying that we can't have a women president because women are so driven by emotion and periods or whatever. They said that when hillary Clinton was running for president. No one said anything about the male presidents not being able to run because of bones or testosterone . It's a double standard.

RoseRapunzel I agree with the overall point of the essay: Frozen isn't as feminist as it is said to be. However, I think the movie is seen as feminist because it's trying to prove that only through sisterly love and caring for each other will both Elsa and Anna thrive and improve. It shows that them being apart and against each other is what's causing problems in the first place. I would've liked you to talk a bit more about how Kristoff and Hans are treated by the movie for perspective though.

UnholyNoise well-intended, and you clearly put so much work into it, but...idk. the claim that anyone walking away with an opposite view isn't capable of, or willing to do, any deep thinking about this movie sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth right off the bat. but also, some of the stuff this piece leans on to debunk "frozen is best ever omg elsa slay!!1!" is...weird? - the whole point of all the over-the-top stuff between hans and anna in "love is an open door" is that it's [i]parody[/i] - the audience is supposed to get the subtext that anna is desperate, that their relationship is totally unrealistic - and imo it's one of the places in this movie where disney confronting its sketchy older messages about romance actually works and isn't undercut by something stupid. - "let it go"/"for the first time in forever" don't necessarily undermine each other, either. imo the theme in both is elsa wanting to live life on her own terms, outside of the social pressure to conceal the powers that are a huge part of who she is - one song is about the upside to this, the other is about what she's giving up. they're like two sides of the same coin. elsa's resistance to going back and leaving the life she's made for herself in exile makes sense too: character-wise, and it ups the tension - where's the dramatic payoff if anna's all "elsa come back with me" and elsa's like "kk" (though that would make the movie a lot shorter, so i can't totally reject it) - olaf does offer anna a solution, but ultimately it isn't even the one she goes with: the curse is broken when anna rejects needing true love's kiss from [i]any[/i] guy and sacrifices herself for her sister. i hate the "don't need no man = real feminist" ethos that people think is necessary to feminism (it isn't) but at the same time, disney using frozen to explore other paths for women to follow is a big deal. so is their foregrounding of platonic familial love. it's also hugely important that both of these women are allowed to be massively, unequivocally [i]wrong[/i], that they get called out in-story for being wrong, and have to own and correct their mistakes to earn their happy endings. whether frozen is the most feminist ever or not, it really doesn't hinge on "but they don't like each other" and other relatively small-potatoes stuff. the actual most messed up part of this movie, and the essay doesn't even cover it, is how tremendously gross "fixer upper" is - the unnecessary romance between a girl and the guy who has mainly treated her like shit, the blatant violation of anna's feelings and consent, and probably some other stuff too but there's no way i'm rewatching that scene to verify unless someone pays me. i haven't decided whether frozen is more/less feminist than the rest of the disney canon - i think it makes more sense to say that frozen does some things much better than earlier movies, and vice versa. but the implication at the end of this piece is that anna and elsa clearly don't stack up, that if we're defining feminism as "stereotypes about women needing help from a man, being a threat to other women, and generally being unable to solve their own problems" (a questionable definition in itself) and not being "well-developed, strong, and interesting heroines", then there's lots of better women out there. and i gotta ask: [i]where[/i]? disney wouldn't even give most of its other heroines female companions, to clash against or in any other capacity, already making this part a non-starter; the other stuff is hardly so clear-cut either. in any event, you'd have to name names in order for this claim to not be specious. / lol i should have just done my own essay

princesslullaby Interesting points. I wrote this 4 years ago so it is a little out of date. That being said, I have a counter argument for your points, but at this point it's not worth it. While I agree that Disney meant for things to be one way, they did not put it forward as such. This is a movie I consider to be good concept, bad execution. The ideas were, but they something got very lost I think, so their entire message becomes jumbled and sometimes contradicts itself. I'm admittedly disappointed because this is based on my favorite fairytale, and features a mostly female cast, smart capable female lead who travels on her own, and zero romance. I'll never see Disney do a faithful or at least well executed version of The Snow Queen.