The Arianne Question 

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Onto topic: This post is going to be a book-to-screen adaptation discussion. As such, we will be talking about many things that may spoil the books (and probably the show). Unsullied viewers are strongly advised not to read this or take part in the discussion that follows. It is for this reason that spoiler text will not be required in this thread. 

(My original thought was to post this on our BRAND NEW FORUMS, by the way, but not enough people even know we

forums yet, and sadly, forum topics are not auto-announced on Twitter.)

As many of you know by now, the role of Arianne Martell—the eldest child of Prince Doran Martell and the heir to the Dornish crown—will be played by absolutely no one. Some fans are stunned by the omission; Arianne is very much a player in the game, one with her own distinct agenda. One would think that her plot, being a flawed failure, would play out quite wonderfully on television. Additionally, having Arianne would at

 provide an opportunity to show more televised sex! A steamy scene or two with a wayward member of the Kingsguard seems tailor-made for this show. Why would HBO pass on that?

But let’s get one thing straight: Arianne is cut. The show is listing Trystane as Doran Martell’s heir.

One is the obvious: How much Dorne do you show? If they only have room for a handful of scenes featuring Dorne (quite possible with only 10 episodes per season), you have to choose the most critical scenes and see what else you can amalgamate. You need some sort of

caper, else why have Dorne at all? You need conflict, and the situation provides that. Do you need Arianne for that? Not if her role in it can be given to someone else.

Also, there’s the question of character interest. Charisma. Is Arianne more interesting than the Sand Snakes? I personally didn’t think she was. Before the casting sides started leaking, I was worried that we’d have all the Sand Snakes amalgamated down to one—or worse, none. I personally prefer the Sand Snakes to Arianne (though not enough to cut her altogether). So if I do, other people might too, including the show runners.

Some people focus on the importance of Dornish female primogeniture, and that’s something, because I agree that is one 

cool aspect of Dorne. The book plot to raise the banners for

is a pretty major part of the story. No one considers female primogeniture a viable threat to the Iron Throne—except the Dornish.

In fact, I believe it’s so big that the television show is going to use it to

The show has done it before; Creating Moments is kind of a television staple. They take something that in the source material is mentioned as rote, or even casually, and they gloss it up in some way.

Should Jon Snow merely find the dying body of Ygritte? NO!

It’s better to see her take the arrow with his own big brown eyes!  Show us his pain!

Does it make a lot of sense to have Sansa change her hair color after she’s arrived at the Eyrie? NO!

But she needs her staircase moment! Make sure the dress is awesome!

Did it work? In most cases, yes. The Jon/Ygritte scene was perfect, and the only people who bitched about the Sansa hair thing were book-readers. Most Unsullied either didn’t notice the hair color change, or thought,

Well, she’s going out among the people of the Vale. Why not a change? 

Remember, in the book, Sansa’s hair change was about Baelish carefully playing the game, accounting for every minute detail. On the show, it was about

—and it put a nice little exclamation point at the end of Sansa’s season 4 arc.

(You could also argue that Baelish’s seeming lack of planning ahead in episode 8 was so that Sansa could have her Moment, and it somewhat weakened his

arc. That is true, and I didn’t like that he suddenly became sacrificially inept so that Sansa could come into her own. But—another television truth—sometimes the story arcs of lesser characters are sacrificed for the story arcs of “main” characters.)

a story arc thing. The television rule is that every (primary) character should have a beginning/middle/ending story arc per season. Character arcs make writers feel smart, and actors love them.

 Sadly, we will sometimes see logic or canon sacrificed all in the name of an arc. Did anyone wonder how the guards at the Eyrie simply allowed the departure of the Hound with Arya Stark? Did that make any sense whatsoever?

Were they all so emotionally battered by the loss of their beloved (ha) Lady Arryn that they simply did not care any more? I guess it’s possible!

The logical conclusion, however, is that it simply did not fit into the beats of Arya’s arc. That, and there’s only so much time to show stuff in a 10-episode season. (In my headcanon, the Hound slew every guard at the Bloody Gate that attempted to stop him from leaving, because Clegane is awesome like that. Yes, he bloodied the Bloody Gate.)

Now we get the omission of Arianne. I have no proof as yet, but I believe this is to create a

either for Doran or for Myrcella herself. (Television show Myrcella being older than book Myrcella, she may be more actively involved in her own plot.) If we are constantly reminded of a woman’s right to rule—which is what Arianne does, essentially—then the Myrcella plot won’t be a plot

t. I honestly think they’re looking to play it out as a triumphant

“What the fools in King’s Landing do not yet understand is that we can crown Myrcella, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, and First of Her Name.”

“Dammit. Oh well. Trystane! Go wed Daenerys! Fire and Blood!”

Aside: No Quentyn? I believe Trystane is actually going to play the role of

. I suspect he will be sent to marry Dany once the Terrible Thing happens to Myrcella. In this Shakespearean version, Myrcella (Juliet) may actually be killed, and then I think we’ll get to see Trystane (Romeo) get roasted. That’s how

(What? Myrcella could totally bite it. If they’re not casting Darkstar, someone competent may actually be swinging that sword!)

confident of is that David and Dan aren’t closet misogynists who hate the idea of women ruling things.  I’ve met these bastards; I can’t say I know the inner workings of their evil hive mind, but even from my short contact I could tell they were keenly-intelligent and progressively-minded dudes.

They catch enough flak from people battering them about the whole

thing. They’re not going to change this very important plot point just because they think men are way awesomer. They’ll change it to try and make it hit harder.

Will it work? I have no clue. All I know is the changes will spur debate and disagreement amongst the faithful.

Sometimes that’s not a bad thing. But we will have to wait and see.

Maybe both Arianne and the Greyjoys will be introduced in season 6 as to not confuse the viewers too much. However, that doesn’t explain what Myrcella will be doing this season… Or (if it happens this season) how the battle of Mereen will play out.

I can see D&D using Ellaria as the role of Arianne in the Queen Maker plot.

If Trystane talks about a sister, or Doran mentions a daughter, then we can assume Arianne is being held off until next season. Otherwise her fate may be cut. But if Trystane takes over Quentyn’s role, it only makes sense for another sibling to be in the wings. They’ve already established the bastard to heir idea with Ramsay, I don’t think they need it in Dorne as well.

The show has already established 8 daughters for Oberyn, yet we are only seeing 3 this season. Same may be true for Arianne. The snippet about Doran having a male heir isn’t different from the book as Arianne overheard Doran mention this and she thinks she is being skipped over.

But…but Darkstar is of then night! *facepalm* I’m very glad this toolbag was not cast

I had forgotten about Ellaria Sand! Yes, she may in fact be the Queen Maker.

I, for one, liked Arianne’s character – more so than the Sand Snakes – and am sorry to see her eliminated. However, I understand the need to reduce the number of new characters, particularly this late in the game. Perhaps it was also thought that viewers would have a better emotional connection to Oberyn’s daughters and their desire to avenge their father’s death.

I hope that Dorne’s practice of equal primogeniture isn’t lost in the show. It is possible for it to play out as Axey suggests and focus it on Myrcella and her crowning. Still, I would prefer that the Dornish story line to be about the Martells and the distinctiveness of their culture. With the rumors of Jaime appearing in Dorne, I guess that we will get more of a focus on their hatred of the Lannisters.

Probably shouldn’t complain. Right now, I am more concerned about the lack of the Greyjoys, the Griffs and Manderely.

Although, in the books, Ellaria was a (oft ignored) voice of peace. So it’s a 180 with her character.

… But damn, I would love to see Indira Varma stirred up and in a rage.

I can understand a lot of the streamlining reasons for slipping parts of Arianne into other characters, ones more tightly connected to Oberyn and more physically active than Arianne as well. This probably solves some story issues, having both fighters and plotters in one.

But I still wish Arianne was in the show, because a woman ruling in her own right is hugely significant. Not as someone who will need to make a grasp at the crown (and fail, as the Queenmaker plot does), but as someone who is born the heir, has been raised in the role, and naturally has the right to rule. Obviously we can’t make final judgment until we see the show, but I’m sighing. I like Arianne a lot. She’s important to a lot of people.

I suspect season 6 will be ALL about the Greyjoys. All you would really get this season would be the Kingsmoot. No real action. I would say the show might casually mention ‘em this season, save ‘em for 6, and then hit us full force in the face. KRAKENS EVERYWHERE.

I mean, think about it. Every season has featured a New Bad. (Or Opposition rather.)

A smart but very unlikely way to solve things would be to send Arianne to Essos instead of Quentyn or Trystane. This would mean that she will not be seeking Dany but rather Aegon (provided that he will be cast) and can still be introduced in season 6. Trystane on the other hand could play part of Ariannes actual book role, fearing to be cast aside in favor of his older sister whom he suspects to be on a secret mission beyond the Narrow Sea and therefore deciding to take matters into his own hand by crowning Myrcella with the help of his cousins. This of course only makes sense if show Doran has some way of knowing of Aegons survival (probably through Varys? Which would in turn be a smart way to illuminate some aspects from the eunuch’s masterful endgame).

I know it’s highly unlikely that things will play out this way but I like the idea of it. Anyone with me?

Obviously we don’t know what will happen in future books, but cutting Arianne sort of implies cutting Aegon as well, since both are probably going to have a common story arc in TWOW. Which would make sense in some way, considering how out of the blue the Aegon thing appeared even to many book readers.

Exactly! Arianne was born to rule. She is not attempting to ascend to power through marriage. Yes, she can be headstrong and foolish but that makes her more interesting (for me, anyway). I’m disappointed. And I still don’t completely understand why…if there is the need to eliminate characters, then give us one Sand Snake and Arianne.

I suspect that much of her role will be transferred to Obara. I’m all for giving Ellaria (and Indira Varma) an expanded role but I would rather that she remain a proponent of peace.

I think they can establish the Dornish inheritance system without Arianne. If the Sand Snakes take over the Queenmaker plot (which they would have done in the books anyway, if not for their imprisonment), they can just start calling Myrcella “queen” and even keep her dialogue with Arianne in:

“Did something bad happen to Tommen?” “He fell in with evil men, Your Grace, and I fear they have conspired with him to steal your throne.”

It could be an act of desperation for a love-struck Tryst or something too, but there’s no reason to overly complicate it. The Sand Snakes are going to be out for vengeance for their father, and the Queenmaker plot still fits in fine for them.

“The one thing I am very confident of is that David and Dan aren’t closet misogynists who hate the idea of women ruling things. I’ve met these bastards; I can’t say I know the inner workings of their evil hive mind, but even from my short contact I could tell they were keenly-intelligent and progressively-minded dudes.”

Thank you. I’m so sick of people shitting on them. Based on their answer to the Tysha question on the panel, it’s clear that they spend a lot of time thinking about what will work best and how they’re going to get where they need to be. Sometimes my confidence in them can get shaken, but overall, they’ve done a superb job adapting this to the visual medium.

I’ m thinking about the butterfly effect that George always mentions. We know what Arianne has done but we don’t know how her story will evolve in WOW. She is going to meet Aegon, we don’t know if this story arc will be significant. Maybe the double D’s know something we still don’t or they just decided to ignore that plot altogether (Jon Con and young Griff).

Maybe Arianne will arrive at the end of season 5 or in season 6. The first scene we see her may be a scene of her with Aegon. She may still get mentioned in season 5 some times by Trystane and Doran. Daario wasn’t in the season 3 casting reel, and Arianne may also be a big deal like Daario is, but just hasn’t been cast yet or will be introduced late in the season. Plausible enough to me. With all the new characters of Dorne which are introduced at the start of season 5, adding Arianne at the start as well may be a little bit too much, but she may still arrive late in the season, like Daario did.

I hope you’re right. It makes perfect sense to establish the Greyjoys as the new major players in season 6. Strictly speaking they aren’t that new but there are so many Ironborn aspects we haven’t come to see on the show yet as they were either cut ore postponed. I therefore have high hopes that we might get references to the Greyjoy uncles in season 5 and possibly a scene containing Balon’s fall and the arrival of a certain ship at the horizon…

What I don’t understand is how they’re going to explain why Doran is such a good player of the game without the two people his plans revolve around – Arianne and Quentyn. In the books he makes a deal to wed Arianne to Viserys and makes sure Quentyn is prepared to rule Dorne while his sister rules Westeros. When Viserys dies, he sends Quentyn to marry Daenerys and Arianne takes his place as the heir. In the meantime, he has Myrcella, the king’s only remaining sibling, in Dorne and engaged to his third child, Trystane.

But if the show has only Trystane, then what? His engagement is only recent and was proposed by Tyrion, not Doran. How do they show he has been planning his revenge ever since Elia died? Will the Martells’ connection to Targaryens be completely lost in the show?

And if Myrcella dies and Trystane takes on Quentyn’s role and then dies… Then Dorne has no heir? I don’t know. It just seems like this decision creates more problems than it solves.

Besides, Arianne’s role as a woman (of colour) who is destined to rule a nation and fights for her rights cannot be overestimated.

With all the new characters in Dorne it would make sense for D&D to want to have a familiar face to provide an anchor for the plot. Ellaria’s want for revenge and connection to the Sand Snakes is already built in. As well as her sexual appetites.

The voice of peace may be switched to Arianne when introduced in a later season if it really is important.

As far as the Greyjoys, I hope you’re right. Right now I’m concerned how D&D convincingly get Reek to escape. I think Yara will be captured and her being tortured will bring back the Theon within him.

I don’t think we can be sure of anything. That includes the plot to crown Myrcella and Trystane travelling to Meereen to woo Dany. Sure, most would assume that both, or at least one of those things would happen, but it would not surprise me if they don’t want to spend time on the crowning Myrcella subplot, especially with Jaime and Bronn going to “rescue” her(which will so obviously fail, ala Yara’s Dreadfort mission). As for Trystane taking over for Quentyn, if “Aegon” is not included on the show, then that leaves Dorne supporting no one or Dany. In order to support Dany, the show can not have her spurn the marriage proposal, and it certainly can’t have Trystane scorched to death.

One possibility is that the showrunners, knowing more than we do, may have info from George about who exactly Dorne will support moving forward. I am assuming it is “Aegon”, but it could be that Doran and Arianne will sniff out that he is a fake, and they won’t support him. I highly doubt they will support Dany. So that leaves them supporting nobody, or it could lead Doran to finally accept Arianne’s plot to crown Myrcella, leaving Trstane to potentially be her king. If that is the case, the show could just cut the sideplots and just have Doran support the crowning Myrcella plot from the start, hell, it may be his idea on the show. But then that takes away from Doran’s character, making it seem like he had no plan until Tyrion(Not Twin, HBO) sent Myrcella to him.

I simply can not believe they are saying Doran will only have one child in the show. It makes little sense for the ruler of Dorne to only have one child, with no spare heirs. Unless they are going to make it into another Selyse situation, where his wife couldn’t have more children. Without any spare heirs, it limits Doran’s options in the show, and takes away from his long and meticulous plot for revenge, potentially. Without a daughter, he can’t have originally sought to marry her to Viserys, and that removes his long game plans, and makes it seem like he truly didn’t have any plans for revenge, until Myrcella fell into his lap. I really wish they would have included Arianne, not because she was that great of a character(she is okay), but because of what it does to Doran. I have zero idea of how they will be able to handle him with only one child.

Chebyshov: Based on their answer to the Tysha question on the panel, it’s clear that they spend a lot of time thinking about what will work best and how they’re going to get where they need to be. Sometimes my confidence in them can get shaken, but overall, they’ve done a superb job adapting this to the visual medium.

I have to say, I wasn’t impressed with that answer. They were explaining how they couldn’t get into flashbacks and they weren’t inside Tyrion’s head, etc. Except we had a lengthy scene in season 1 explaining who Tysha was already. So we didn’t need a flashback or to be inside Tyrion’s head, and know she was his wife he loved. I remember this being discussed quite a lot when “The Children” aired. Many Unsullied fans said (and ASOIAF fans reported what their Unsullied friends had said) that they remembered the Tysha story. If not her name, they remember Tyrion had a wife and that awful story. I think D&D underestimate the audience sometimes.

But they do have a lot of difficult choices to make, and I know hindsight is a hell of a lot easier than making those judgments. When it’s just the group of writers in a room, having to make those calls, it can’t be easy to know what the audience will or won’t recall from earlier seasons, or what is too much.

I can’t post on the forums because it says I must be logged in to create a new topic. So how do I go about logging in?

While I hate losing Arianne, I can foresee Myrcella taking on some of Arianne’s storyline from the books as well. I daresay in the show, once Trystane’s journey to Meereen goes fatally awry, Doran might send Myrcella and a Sand snake to meet with Aegon (assuming he isn’t cut), in an attempt to marry Myrcella to Aegon. If Doran believes that ‘Young Griff’ truly is his nephew, Elia’s son, that makes Aegon the heir to Dorne as well (assuming primogeniture is out the window). This would also be enough basis for him to throw the support of Dorne behind Aegon’s claim to the throne. And an alliance between Aegon and Myrcella ‘Baratheon’ would help convince the other kingdoms of the legitimacy of the claim. Whether they have to other-throw/kill Tommen in order for this to happen, or just wait for someone else to do it, is as yet unclear.

Try now. A setting seems to have reverted itself overnight, but I just flipped the switch.

I think the effects that Arienne’s omision will have depend on where the Aegon plot goes and, in that matter D&D surely know more than us. I think if the Aegon plot ends up in quick failure they might have decided to cut all his arc and Arienne, and transfer her other roles to the other Dornish. If, on the other hand, they do include Aegon on the TV series I see no reason for not including Arienne, but as a work around they might make Trystane go to Dany and die and, as Doran would have no more children they might use a “bastards are respected and can inherit in Dorne” card and make Obara the heir, wedding her to Aegon (thing wich book’s Obara would probably NEVER do but anyways)… Still I think that if they really cut Arienne we should not have high hopes for Aegon and his arc.

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