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"LOST" - What was Nathan hiding?
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I'm asking the question... Who is Nathan really? Now hear me out on this one... On several re-watches of the episode, I started to realize there was a lot more going on than I originally thought. One thing that's important to remember is the great LOST Canada deception! It's well known that EVERY other reference to Canada or being Canadian on LOST (and there are many), is indicative of deception. 100% of the time! It stands to reason that Nathan may not actually be Canadian at all, or if he is (making him the ''only'' true Canadian in the entire series), then he was being deceptive in some other way. The Canada deception was used quite effectively in season 1 - so much so that when he first says that's where he's from, we became instantly suspicious. Now - this does not mean he wasn't on the plane. There is little evidence either way - adding credibility to him potentially being 'Widmore's victim' (the guy that is seen in the video that Ben shows Locke later on). See: Widmore's Victim Other characters make reference to him being on the beach during the rescue so we know he was there at least (so was Goodwin by the way). Yet, despite seeing every other Taily survivor, there is not a single frame from those scenes with him in it. Viewers first see him exactly 10 minutes into the episode 'The Other 48 Days', next to Ana Lucia and seconds before several Others are heard nearby waking up the survivors as Eko kills two of them (triggering his 40 days of silence). WE do however see all the other characters, Eko, Libby, Ana Lucia, Cindy, Bernard (even Goodwin) etc in the initial crash scenes but not Nathan. This seems a deliberate act on the part of the writers (to connect him with the Others that infiltrated the camp by showing him to us at the same time they appear). This then leads to the question... WAS NATHAN PUPROSELY DEFLECTING ATTENTION AND/OR COVERING UP FOR GOODWIN SO HE WOULD NOT BE CAUGHT OUT BY AN INCREASINGLY PARANOID ANA LUCIA? Watch very carefully at the looks that Goodwin and Nathan give each other thoughout the episode. It seems as if they have a previous familiarity with each other. Over time these turn into looks of frustration (with each other and/or the increasingly difficult/dangerous Ana Lucia). Even before he's put into the hole, Nathan seems scared, possibly worried he's about to blow his cover. The frustration with Goodwin palpable for having to take all the flack for protecting him. He's clearly scared for his life! This is where I get most suspicious... GOODWIN: Ana Lucia's -- I think we all think that she's going to hurt you. Now, you need to get away from here. There's some fruit in there, now just go. NATHAN: Which way's the beach? Why would he ask that question when he knows the beach is more dangerous than where they were at that time? Afterall, it was on the beach that the Others attacked them. None of the other Taily's in his predicament would CHOOSE to go back to the beach after what they went through. (Also, it was Nathan's idea to light the fire there in the first place, leading the Others right to them!) Consider this also; the Others knew that the beach was the safest place from the smoke monster. There is not a single scene in all six seasons where we see the monster on the actual beach itself (not in smoke form anyway). Only in the woodland nearby. The Tailys however weren't threatened (or even knew of) the smoke monster at that point. Their only threat were the Others who attacked them on the beach time and time again. So then why was Nathan referred to as a bad person by both Goodwin and Ben? Is it possible that (while previously living amongst the Others), Nathan took a liking to Juliet? As Goodwin was having an affair with her at the time, and Ben's affections for her well known, their individual jealousy would explain their animosity. Or did Nathan somehow conspire with Widmore in some way. If he was Widmore's victim, he may have divulged information to him that he was not supposed to (perhaps under duress/torture). Or was he sent by Widmore ahead of the mercenary team that was sent weeks later to assist them in locating Ben once they got there? This would definitely explain why he's called a 'bad person' by both men. The common goal of not blowing each others cover would also explain the cat and mouse game between them. This links directly to another bit of evidence I'd like to throw into the mix... ie: what Goodwin says to Ana Lucia when she catches him out. He says that Nathan wasn't on the list (of names she found on the Other that was murdered) because he wasn't a good person. But hold on. Everyone else was on the list, including Goodwin himself (obviously to reduce suspicion on himself) - so were the Others setting Nathan up out of spite (we know Ben didn't like him for whatever reason). Remember, Ben also didn't like Goodwin which is why he sent him in the first place. He kept him there long enough to arouse Ana Lucia's suspicion leading directly to his death - making Juliet his again. Ben also later tells Juliet (in one of her flashbacks) that Goodwin was "making a case" for Ana Lucia to join them. But the obvious question here is - when the hell did Goodwin have time to talk to Ben at all? If he had ever gone away, Ana Lucia would've noticed. They have a 'system' for that! Goodwin was doing all he could to avoid suspicion. Who does dissapear though? You guessed it. Nathan. For over 2 hours. We're never shown why. We only know that someone possibly made contact with the Others at some point to make the case for Ana Lucia. And then there's the accent... He does not sound Canadian!!! When first caged, he yells 'let me out' several times. There's absolutely no evidence of accent at all! (Canadians have a very distinctive way of pronouncing the word 'out'). This could be put down to poor acting by Josh Randall - but I doubt it very much. His acting is absolutely flawless throughout the episode. Remember... This is LOST. It's unlikely the director would have let this pass. After all, Evangeline Lilley (who plays Kate) is Canadian in real life and she spent six seasons masking her accent quite effectively - even, and this is key, when she masqueraded as a Canadian while in Australia to fool the Aussie farmer... the actress maintained her American accent. Adding credibility to how much attention accents receive on LOST, the producers discuss the matter on the commentary track for the Pilot episodes (DVD and Blu-Ray). They had to work very hard with Evangeline to remove her Canadian accent which at the start of the series 1 was very strong - despite the fact her character was pretending to be one in several scenes. Nathan says 'out' three times and each time it sounds 100% American with not even a hint of anything else. I can't help but think this was deliberate. Of course we could just accept the story on face value that he's indeed the only Canadian on the show, in Australia for a work conference, and that he is just naturally belligerant, even though he knows Ana Lucia is dangerous, and chooses to put himself in harms way with his behavior because he doesn't like taking orders. This is possible... But - LOST in my experience is never ever that simple. Any normal person would have heeded the warning signs if only to protect themself. Instead, Nathan defies Ana Lucia to the point of death - indeed she was hours away from killing him before Goodwin beat her to it (perhaps feeling that he was about to take him down with him)! I mean, are we really to believe Nathan is the only real Canadian in six seasons of Lost when the writers have been so consistent with the oft used 'Canada Deception' (both before and after this episode)? I believe there are compelling arguments that there is more to this enigmatic character than meets the eye. Was he an Other, Widmore's victim, a member of one of Jacob's many groups or a spy? What I'm least convinced of however is that he's Canadian. Which of course leads back to the original question I posed... Who is he? I know we'll probably never be told the real answer, but while Darlton continue to maintain radio silence on the issue, based on the evidence above, I'd love to know your thoughts.
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So, I don't think Nathan was an Other. He was simply a red herring and eventually Goodwin's innocent victim.
It's important to point out that there seem to be several factions of "Others" and I'm guessing gregaus implying Nathan is aligned to one of several possible "Other" groups. There are the main group (on the island led by Ben), and there are off-island Others as well. The obvious ones are directly connected to Ben (the butcher lady for example). But then there are non-aligned factions such as the one led by Charles and another that's led by Eloise Hawking! Even though both these people are no longer part of the main group (indeed Widmore is Ben's nemesis), they still operate as separate factions ultimately working toward a common goal.
Then there is the group led by Ilana. It was no secret that Jacob had dealings with many people off the island so technically, they can be viewed as Others as well. Nathan could easily have belonged to any on of them or worked for Widmore. Another very cool theory.
But yeah, what if he wasn't on the plane? (The evidence is stacked this way for sure). In this case, where is he from? There is one other group - The Temple people. While connected to Ben's Others, they're still a separate group entirely and Dogen could have sent him to investigate?
The plot thickens!
I think he was on the plane but spent a lot of time in the bathroom (it took him 2 hours to go on the island as well :P) and was just a bit of an ass. I have no idea why he would be when someone's thrown him in a pit - I'd be doing everything in my power to convince Ana Lucia that I was innocent, whereas he just didn't seem to care. Very strange....
He could have been at the Temple though, good thinking 99 :D
Thank you gregaus for helping me enjoy my favorite show even more than ever.
I'm not sure that Danielle didn't recognise Ben - in fact when he's caught in the net by her in 2004, she is the one most convinced he's an Other. Only, she doesn't mouth the words 'he's the guy that stole my baby'. Perhaps the trauma of losing Alex blurred things?
I agree with the Charlie swim thing too. He openly says he can't swim in season 1 then all of a sudden can swim down to the looking glass station. However it's believed he was lying when he said he was a swim champion. He did this to ensure he'd be the one to swim down so that Desmond's prediction would come true (ie: Claire and Aaron being saved).
I'd forgotten about the purge - you're right, she should have died! Maybe she was too far away from it? And Jin - I can't remember (I haven't got to that in the re-watch, and my memory's a bit fuzzy) but did Danielle ever actually see Jin in 2004?
It's possible Charlie lied about being a swim champ, but he definitely knew how to swim. Maybe he was still in shock from the crash and lied about not being able to swim because didn't want to take the risk of drowning trying to save someone he didn't know?
Questions, questions, questions. It's great! :)
VOICE: Help me!
DANIELLE: Don't believe a word he says.
VOICE: Hey!
DANIELLE: He's one of them.
VOICE: I have no idea what she's talking about. She's crazy.
SAYID: How long has he been up there?
VOICE: Since last night. Please, just cut me down. My name is Henry Gale. I'm from Minnesota. Please.
DANIELLE: He's lying.
SAYID: [pulling out his knife] I'm going to cut him down.
DANIELLE: Don't.
GALE: Thank you.
DANIELLE: You're making a serious mistake.
SAYID: [after cutting him down] It's okay, it's okay. You're alright. You're alright. Hold on. Take it easy.
[Danielle prepares her cross bow. Gale sees her.]
GALE: [running] No.
SAYID: Wait. Danielle, don't!
[Danielle shoots Gale in the shoulder. Sayid runs to him.]
SAYID: You could have killed him.
DANIELLE: If I wanted to kill him, I would have killed him.
SAYID: You shot this man with no provocation.
DANIELLE: He IS one of them. Tie him up. You should take him to your doctor. He's no good to you dead.
She then repeats her insistence several times in subsequent episodes. The question now is, did the writers know at this point that it was Ben who stole Alex? I'm guessing they made that bit up later.
Speaking of Rousseau, here's another one. She tells Sayid she's never seen any of them prior to catching Ben. Only hearing their "whispers". But she's definitely met Ben and Jin. That's two people we KNOW she's met that weren't part of her science expedition.
Hey Hawking, good point about Jin and who/what Danielle thought he was. I'd love a new DVD/BluRay set that addresses these inconsistencies. For example, remove the line where Charlie says he can't swim and audio dub Danielle saying "He took something from me many years ago". Best that at that point theres no mention of the baby because that topic comes up a few episodes later with dramatic effect. Danielle tells Kate they stole her Alex. When asked who's Alex, she answers "my child" then walks off into the jungle sad.
But... How would they deal with the issue of how Danielle survived the purge? It's made clear in the show that there is nowhere on the island that was immune from the toxic gas cloud. It would have enveloped the island and then headed out to sea to dissipate. Obviously Danielle has never had a bath in her time on the island so it's doubtful she was miles out to sea bathing. So just HOW did she escape it?
LOST writers... Please explain! ;)
Also, Kelvin and Radzinsky survive The Purge in 1992, so perhaps Rosseau hid within The Swan, when one of them had gone out?
"Obviously Danielle has never had a bath in her time on the island"!
She was always pretty dirty, eh?
But yeah, that's a pretty major inconsistency. Rousseau surviving the purge. Hmmm...
[Jack runs toward the ocean.]
CHARLIE: I don't swim.
Just finding the right quote. It may have been that Charlie thought he would be unable to handle the currents, or he wasn't a very confident swimmer.
I'm going to take that anyway because it helps make that inconsistency a lot easier to swallow. :)
And how would she have known TO hide? I can accept that the Swan offered immunity from the purge, but her camp is many miles away. Did she have some kind of pre-warning? If so, how?
Any other theories? We're doing well so far! (Loving this)
Here's the the thing... Richard has many gray hairs prior to this as evidenced by a close up on his face when he visits baby Locke in the hospital soon after he was born. MANY gray hairs are visible on the side of Richards head above his ears.
(This is only a very little gripe to be honest, hardly worth worrying about, but putting it out there nonetheless)
I believe this is another case of the writers making a big mistake and trying to 'fix' it by backpedaling. In the LOST Encyclopedia it states that Widmore ordered the Purge but there is no evidence of this at all that I've seen. From my perspective it was the work of Ben. He seemed the one in control of the entire event. (Happy to be corrected though).
The 1987 hypothesis was (in my opinion) just a ruse created to help recitify the continuity error. There are other indicators that it happened in 1992 as well such as Kelvin Inman supposedly being on the island at the time of the purge. It would had to have been post Gulf War (as we see him interact with Sayid off the island) so that places the event post 1991.
Don't think that we'll ever get a definitive on this one. I guess we just have to accept the expo facto reason given to us by Darlton and Gregg Nations (script supervisor).
Actually I think we're having this conversation BECAUSE the show was so good. The continuity errors that do exist stand out in a big way because they're few and far between, but when seen become distracting.
Yep. That's right. I had no clue about the supernatural/sci-fi elements of the storyline. Shameful, right? I have geeky friends too who were begging me to watch it but not one of them revealed that part of it.
Imagine my (very pleasant) surprise when in the pilot episode I heard the (yet unseen) smoke monster sound and wondered (to coin Charlie), "where the hell are they"? And I was hooked. I had the advantage of being able to watch (season 1-5) episodes back to back but what I missed out on (ironically till the show was finished) was being part of the online Lost community.
I guess that's why I'm so happy that's it's still alive today. A testament to how great and long lasting the show is! :)
The one thing I'm disappointed about was that I missed the online games associated with it; by the time I found out about them they were all over.
I barely coped with the 4ish months between when I watched the season 5 blu-ray and the start of 6 on TV! Then I had to deal with a brand new phenomenon. Waiting an entire week between episodes. How any of you guys did this for the previous 5 seasons is beyond me. Season six was a killer!!! (But so worth it)
How about one called "Mrs. Reyes" featuring Hurley's mum (she's one character I could never get enough of). We discover that she's in fact a "temporal policeman" as well (I know, right???)
Turns out she pushed Hugo (very secretly) to the island BOTH times (just like Eloise did with Faraday only much more subtley) and the solid gold statue of Jesus contains within it unique electro-magnetic energy that she harnesses for time and inter-dimensional travel! This way we get to see her on the Island when she visits her son!
Maybe then we'll finally have an answer to "why there is a dead Pakistani on my couch???"
*** DARLTON - ARE YOU LISTENING TO ANY OF THIS??? *** ;)
Love the gold Jesus statue hypothesis. Literally, Gold!!!
I'm still recovering from that scene where she holds it and sheepishly explains to Hugo that the reason his dad is back is because she has "needs"!
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