Good question! I was actually going to pick unsure but... No, I think I will go back and pick unsure (right now I said "No") because I actually don't know enough about this issue, and will readily admit that. Someone want to educate me?

We have illegal aliens coming in our country and working. They are using fake SSN the same kind terrorist in 911 used. Not to say they are all terrorist. This has been a big issue in congress and in the election debates that have been going on.

I'm actually not going to add "unsure" to picks, this is a debate spot. You have to have a stance on something to debate. If you were running for congress and someone asked this question do you reply with "I'm unsure" I don't think so. LOL

Haha, that's true, but people here aren't running for Congress, and may not know as much as a politician on certain issues. I think it's important to have people on the fence on some issues, so they can mediate and/or be persuaded by one side or another.

Then they should go through the immigration process not illegally cross the borders and obtain social security numbers. Did you know that our jails are over crowded with illegal immigrants? Or that something like 23 people are murdered a day by illegal immigrants?

I completely disagree with people coming over illegally... but they are for the most part relatively uneducated so it's not like they're taking jobs we actually want.. I mean do you want to be a gardener? Or picking fruit? I know those are really stereotypical jobs, and I'm not trying to be racist (especially being half Hispanic myself), but to be honest for the most part they're taking the "dirty" jobs that nobody else really wants.

Wait you call illegal immigrants aliens? I thought you were joking xD I think it needs to be controlled I live in the UK and I like living in diversity but there is a big debate over here about Polish builders working cheaper and British builders being put out of the job. It has negative effects but also positives and I think the pros out way the cons.

I heard that some statistics say that 80% of agricultural laborers in America are illegal. It's not the companies fault Americans don't want to do those jobs.

"I will gladly pick your peaches or clean your hotel rooms
I will do the jobs Americans won't do
With their cell phones to their heads and 700 dollar shoes
I will risk my life because it's all I have to lose."
-- White Crosses by Edwin McCain.

Sorry, this argument just reminds me of the song. It's an interesting one.

Hm... I've been thinking about it... I think I'm gonna go with "no" on this... Though I'm still a swing vote. I've been researching. :o)

As long as they are working hard and not doing anything to hurt other people, I really don't see a HUGE problem with them working.

The issue of Illegals is a huge problem in the UK. I personally believe that companies should be punished, they hire illegals because they work more hours for less money, and they don't have to afford them the same rights as everyone else. I fail to see how this can be a good thing.

I agree with yeahisawsprarks and don't feel like repeating it all ;)

do you want to go out and be the one picking our grapes and digging our dirt?
no, i don't think you do. when you want that job, then you can complain about them taking your jobs.

also, 23 people killed a day by illegal immigrants?
where do you get your information?
do you really take your stance on the fact that you think they're coming here killing people?
american citizens kill more people than illegal immigrants do, and that's a promise.

and you try immigrating to america sometime.
it's an expensive, difficult, and long process. so unless you're prepared to stand by your argument and try it out, keep your mouth shut, these people have been through enough.

Some statistics:

There are 12 million estimated illegal immigrants in the US
850,000 illegal immigrants who enter the U.S. each year
2,300,000 citizens who became naturalized U.S. citizens between 2000 and 2003
5 percent of U.S. jobs estimated to be held by illegal immigrants
25 percent estimated portion of farm jobs held by illegal immigrants
17 percent estimated portion of office and house cleaning jobs held by illegals
14 percent estimated portion of construction jobs held by illegals
12 percent estimated portion of food preparation jobs held by illegals

thx for the stats Cinders! I agree w/ megloveskyle that they should go thru the immigration process. This personally affects me b/c b4 my parents came to this country they went thru the immigration process. Now I have cousins who have graduated from colleges here and are going thru an H1B visa process just so they can work for companies here! So basically my opinion is pick a number and get in line like the rest! Companies should also be supportive of citizens here, I mean even if it may be cheaper to hire illegal alliens the citizens over here are being affected b/c the standard cost of living isn't getting any lower...but then again, that's a whole different debate! LOL!

WAT THE FUK IS RONG WITH ILLEGAL ALIENS

THEY DO THE TUF JOBS IN THIS CUNTRY THAT OTHER CITIZENS ARE TO LAZY TO DO SO AT LEEST BE FUKIN APPRECIATIVE

We don't have anything wrong with the immigrants, iluvetheoffice, you must have read the question wrong. We've got problems with the employers of illegal immigrants. At least I do. If you're knowingly hiring workers so you can pay them less and so they can't unionize and don't have the benefits of a citizen, you should be punished. Now, I personally have a problem with illegal immigrants because they are obviously breaking the law, but I was watching Obama on C-Span today (something I NEVER do), and he had some awesome plans to help control our border problems.

ohh ok that clears THIS question up thanks 4 the the help and im sorry if i offendened anyone but i just dont get why you would hav anything against imagrants ca someone tell me that so that i can now i got so mad because so many people r angry about these imigrants coming and i just dont get y

We're unhappy with illegal immigrants (and please correct me if I'm wrong, because my knowledge on this issue is limited) because they come into the country illegally, get a job and get benefits like social security. Social security comes out of our paychecks and tax dollars, so they're basically getting free money...? Idk, megloveskyle, could you help me out?

i agree with iluvtheoffice12

i effing HATE illegal immigrants! Our tax money is giving those jerks social security and health benefits. do they pay taxes? NO! they're illegal! i like legal ones but the illegal ones piss me off.

Yes stricter laws, But not fines and stuff, I think the company who employs them should help the illegals Achieve citizenship, and if that means paying for english classes or paying for them to take the citizenship test or whatver else costs come up, then so be it.

yes i agree wit you. if we kicked out all the aliens..it would be catastrophic....

Do you know how poor people that cross the border illegally are?

and do you know that some of them work more than 12 hours a day to be able to eat

do you think these people have the time and money to "pick a number and get in line like the rest!"

I picked unsure because it depends what you mean, though from my guess I'd be leaning towards no. Our immigration laws are faintly ridiculous, they don't work and beside, we're a country of immigrants for goodness sake! However, companie that hire illegal immigrants often exploit them, so it really depends on what the laws would be.

i said absolutly yes illegal aliens steal jobs from americans

If you live in Arizona, (such as I) you've heard this issue everyday on the news. To those who live in upstate New York, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, or any other state not near the border or in the southwest, you don't know how it is.

Arizona is one of the states where we are largely in debt. Some schools, (Fortunately, this is not my case yet) cannot even afford basic supplies.

Illegal immigrants are a big issue. We have them a lot here, and this is a prime topic for discussion. They might help us get out of our debt, or cause more problems.

i really have no idea i think we need more jobs now that the recession is in but my sister says immigrants do jobs we don't want(i.e maids and stuff) so i'm confused :/

I'm British, so this stuff is lost on me. :/

Yes. I mean, the economy in the US is still suffering, so it's pretty awful that companies are employing illegal immigrants when so many people in the country have lost their jobs and can't find new ones.

Where you live depends on what jobs the aliens take. I live in Ohio (in America) and there aren't really a lot of "farming" jobs - it's all the desk jobs and fast-food jobs that get taken. As a student struggling through college, those are, really, the only jobs I can get until I get my degree.

And like KateKicksAss said: the economy is still suffering and there are still a lot of people unemployed. There are people who would take a job cleaning a hotel room and picking grapes - when you're unemployed with a family to support, you'll take anything that's available.

Besides, it's not impossible to get a green card. I have no problem with them coming over here, it's that they stay illegal and get the jobs that's my problem.

My stance on illegal immigration is that it IS in fact illegal and should not be tolerated.
However, I feel that immigrants should have a much fair chance to enter our country. By the standards it takes to get in this country today I doubt my ancestors would have met the requirements.

What if they werent bad people and just needed the jobs :( They shouldnt even have the power to say if they are "illegal" or not. No one person owns the land and we are ALL one people just trying to survive! The only thing that seperates us is continents....

Many companies take advantage of unregistered immigrants who can't find jobs and have them work below minimum wage. Not only is this unfair to actual citizens who could've gotten that job, it's unfair to the immigrant for their best option to be to work in those conditions. If we could get most or all of immigrants either deported or legalized properly, we could provide legal working conditions. But as of now, we can't.

Did you see my stats of the types of jobs immigrants take, and the percentages of the industry they make up? Believe me, if they could get better ones in their countries, don't you think they would? Ever think that the reason they take those conditions is because they are STILL BETTER than working conditions in their home country?

Companies barely pay legal citizens minimum wage.

I teach the children of illegal immigrants, and they are terrified of deportation. America is their home, it's all they know, and they don't want to go back. "Deportation" sounds like an easy solution for people lucky enough to be born American citizens (Because that's all it is is luck), but it's a nightmare for immigrants.

Legalization - Sure! I'm all for legalization. But that's easier said than done.

Looking at the comment chain, three years ago, I was the swing vote. I knew little about the illegal immigration, and was willing to be swayed. In case you can't tell, I've developed a stronger opinion on the topic since then based on the facts I've learned and people I've met.

I think there should be some kind of law of "trying" in this case.

We all know that it's impossible for some countries to get into countries like America or Holland or the UK legally.

But what if we let them in IF they try to become a legal citizen who pays taxes and speaks the language and knows the culture? Then the illegal immigrants are intigrated(or something like that XD) and they can get a better life too.

One second.. let me get this straight... reading over this debate, it seems that in America immigrants are called "aliens"? Wtf? That is sooo messed up.

^ True that's why I cal them immigrants and citizens ^^

I guess the government started calling them like that so that the Americans wouldn't think the illegal immigrants were people anymore so they'd support them... or something like that XD.
(not that I hate the US governmnent or something but every government manipulates its citizens from time to time)

Well, I read this pick in the updates and it's like "illegal aliens" and I'm like wtf, as if that isn't deleted, it's obviously spam. Then I come on here and see the debate and as you can imagine, was very surprised.
Aliens. That's totally barbaric.

I was just talking with my mother about this issue the other day. My parents are familiar with bureaucracy and government and how it works on account of their jobs. The immigrants that we deem "valuable" are the ones with skills. If you have no skills, then we don't want you. If you want to go to school to cultivate skills, then we'll give you a student visa, some of which have the option of becoming naturalized after your schooling is complete, if you decide to stay and use the skills you've learned. However, to obtain a student visa, you must have the money for and be enrolled in a program. Most illegal immigrants come from extremely poor families that cannot afford visas. Their "skills" and "potential" are determined by their economic status. That's hardly an equal opportunity, in my opinion.

Why do you think illegal immigrants exist in the first place? If there was a legal way for them to immigrate, don't you think they'd take it? The problem is, we don't want poor people, and we don't want to give poor people the opportunity to rise up the economic ladder. The ironic thing is, we need illegal immigrants to do jobs that many Americans have stopped wanting to do, like farm labor.

As for the "aliens" term, it's not one I like, but the term "alien" simply means "foreign," or "not from here." That's where we get the term for extraterrestrials. It's not meant in an inhuman way, although that's the connotations it has. It also leads to punny jokes in the movie Men in Black. ;o)

EDIT: My mother brought up the point of how this is why international aid and development in other countries is important in reducing immigration (illegal or legal). Because if you want to reduce the number of people trying to escape the horrible conditions of their home country, improve the conditions of that country. Make them not want to leave. The problem is, many people from these countries go to the US on a student visa with full intentions of returning to their home country to help it. But when they are successful, and realize they can help more people and earn a better salary if they stay in the States, going back to their home country is hard. And by that time, as a doctor or lawyer or whatever they had trained to be to help their own country, we in the United States want them as a skilled worker who can help us socially and economically.

This is one reason why, my mother claims, international development and aid is and should be of vital interest to the United States. Not just for altruistic humanitarian reasons, but for practical economic and diplomatic reasons as well.

^ "and we don't want to give poor people the opportunity to rise up the econmoic ladder"

(btw I'm talking from my country's perspective and how things are arranged here maybe it can be applied for the US as well)

Well one reason for that is that most of the time, this goes at the expense of the citizens who were born and raised here and who work their asses off. The rich people don't have to pay anything, it is at the costs of those who work hard and who make a fair amount of money. (again, like the corn field)

Looking at all the taxes we have to pay for (il)legal non-western immigrants (because if the immigrants are western they get nothing, but if you yell "RACIST" around then you'll even get a house, seriously) and looking at the crime rate (hate to say it and I'm gonna sound like a racist, but those eastern europeans are even worse than the morrocains!) I can understand why people want to make the immigration law more strict.

Though the Dutch immigration law is very fucked up if I may say it like that. Messed up or screwed up would be an understatement. I have cousins in Indonesia who want to come here for 3 weeks and want to stay over at my grandma's house.
Now they have applied for a visa last December and omg the trouble they have to go through! There was actually a guy in my grandma's house to make sure there was enough room for them, their medical files were looked at and so much more!

While someone from an Arab country like morocco, turkey, saudi-arabia or egypt or eastern-european countries like poland, bulgary(or however you say it) etc. can come without any questions asked.
People call us racists all the time, but with stories like this you can't help it but feel screwed by both the government and the immigrants who got here, live off your taxes and rub it in your face as well.

Though I'm all for the fact that they throw open our borders from fugitives from Iraq, Afghanistan etc.


Btw I've heard a lot about the mexican question and all. I have a friend who is Mexican and she is heading to Mexico this summer to visit her family.

Now my other friend who lives in the US told me there were a lot of Mexicans fleeing for the troubles in their country.

But... what if the Mexicans who are fleeing for the drug war and who can't afford to go to the US just head south instead of risking their lives trying to cross the border? That would be A. safer for them B. they have reassurance for a future and C. they don't have to fear deportation!

But that just came from someone who has been watching from the sideline. :P

People from Poland can come here no questions asked because those countries are part of the European Union and one of the things that we as members of the European Union decided was to (semi) open up our borders to other E.U. members. This is called the Schengen-agreement.

People from Arab countries cannot come here 'without any questions asked'. Turkish and Moroccan people often bring their family (or partner) here. But these Turkish or Moroccan people who live here are Dutch. They may have two nationalities, but one of them is Dutch. And we brought their parents here in the first place, to do hard or dirty jobs Dutch people did not want to do.

People call us racists all the time,
Who are the 'people' you talk about and who are 'us' in this sentence?

Sure most Turkish and Moroccan people who live here are Dutch, but many of them take advantage of the "sociale voorzieningen"(what's that in english? XD) by saying they have like 5 kids in Turkey or Morocco while that's not true at all.

It's just in general. I had a traineeship with the police for like a week a few years ago. There was this moroccain group hanging in the mall who were loud and harrassing other people(looking in their bags and calling them names) so the officer I was with asked if they could move because they were a bother to the other shoppers. Those guys jumped up calling him a racist and all while they were just frigging annoying but they take advantage of the fact they are half moroccain or wherever they came from to do whatever they want and that bugs me. That was just one of the examples.
But what bugs me the most is that because of these mall-jerks, the guy in my class who is Moroccain and my cousin's husband who is Moroccain feel uncomfortable because they're afraid people look at them like they're those mall-jerks.

sociale voorzieningen = social security.

More later, off to enjoy the nice weather :)

I have no idea Turkish and Moroccan people lie about the amount of children they have in an other country that often - do you have any statistics of that? I thought fraud with the social securities is mostly about saying you can't work while they can't or stuff like that.

'hate to say it and I'm gonna sound like a racist, but those eastern europeans are even worse than the morrocains!'

'But what bugs me the most is that because of these mall-jerks, the guy in my class who is Moroccain and my cousin's husband who is Moroccain feel uncomfortable because they're afraid people look at them like they're those mall-jerks.'

You say it bothers you that a few of the Moroccan get punished because of the actions of others, while a few comments ago you yourself were very negative about an entire group of people.
Don't put everyone of one group in one basket.

Yup here's my source ^^

link

And true, I might have stated my opinion wrongly...
Let's say there are Moroccains, jerk-M's, East-EU's and jerk east-EU's.

The jerk east-EU's are way worse than jerk-M's because the jerk-M's mostly just talk smack and threaten you a lot without doing a lot. But the jerk east-EU's are really into crime, human trafficking and more. I'd say they are way more dangerous than the jerk-M's.

Also lately on the news there was this thing about a mayor sticking out her neck for someone Afghanistan-born who had to go back.

THen I'm thinking, why the eff do they send people back to Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, places where there is war going on!
But the people from Morocco and east-EU can stay while they commit crimes, don't speak the Dutch language, can't even say yes or no, are no way near understanding the Dutch culture while the people from the "war-countries" do.

So I think the Dutch government is measuring with double standards. EVen though I think a mayor should listen to her bosses, I agree with her.

You source does not say anything about how often people commit fraud by saying they have children abroad while they don't.
It only mentioned that to combat fraud by saying a child living abroad on it's own (you get double child allowance then) you now have to have a statement from local authorities saying where the child lives. So that people don't get double child allowance while their child is living with family.

I already said why you can't 'send back' East-Europeans (they are members of the European Union) or Moroccans (they also have a Dutch passport, you can't send away Dutch people).

Yes, there is a double standard. Because the two cases (East-Europeans and Moroccans vs refugees) fall under entire different laws. So yes, they are treated different, since there are different laws governing when these people can stay etc.